Direct democracy does not make sense

[Thac0man]

They can be removed at the next election as in all other european countries. I dont see why you need this. The parliamentarians can do this job and better as they are better informed as to what the situation is.

Face it. Even britain does not rely on allowing very important international issues to be decided by people who will naturally vote just in their own interests. This view is completely incompatible with a functionaing european union. It can not work with Direct Democracy.

Cold comfort for the nation if the government is voted out AFTER signing Ireland up to a binding and potentially damaging EU treaty.....

[StripeyCat]

If you are not happy with teh irish politicians for being corrupt or whatever then, then like Ibis, I say please feel free to vote them out next time.

Who would I vote for though? The political "elite" decided en masse that Lisbon was a good thing. (Thank God for Mary Lou McDonald. I'll certainly be voting for her next time, but since the "elite" control the media, I won't be holding my breath for a Sinn Fein landslide. )

If Ireland leaves the EU it will be the peoples fault, but what about the future generations who will be left in poverty? Thats why you cannot have direct democracy.

Yeah right. We'll be scratching around in the dirt like the Norwegians...

[sofia_b]

[quote=garlandgreen]

Of course your country would know a lot about forcing other countries to give up their sovereignty against their will, given that you did that in 2 world wars. With all due respect we have made our decision, and if your people were given a referendum on this treaty, they too would likely vote no - a newspaper poll in 2005 found 96% would have voted no to the EU Constitution. And to be quite honest, if the EU wants to change from being a union of democratic nation states to a superstate bullying small countries into colonial-subjugation, then maybe remaining in it isn't so attractive after all. I favour EU membership but only as long as we get the the final say on how far Ireland is integrated politically into it. I am opposed to a Federal Europe, and the truth is that so are most Europeans, but their politicians who know this refuse to give them a referendum for that reason.

Thats why you cannot have direct democracy.

Ja mein fuhrerin.

Is this your idea of humour?

Sarcasm. I do not take kindly to being told my no vote doesn't count for anything. It's called democracy, and Irish history is very different from German history. And regarding Germany's ban on national referenda, remember that Hitler's referenda were held after he did something - not beforehand e.g. after the Anschluss with Austria, after he merged the presidency and the Chancellorship. In contrast, all Irish referenda came before something was done. In that context, the reasons for referenda being banned in Germany do not stand up to scrutiny.

Ah the famous British sarcasm. You are a bunch of little englanders after all.
OK that was a joke(Sorry)

But the Irish No will be respected. I am just making a suggestion as an individual who has contacts here that you the irish people do something about it or your place in europe will be in jeopardy. That is not a threat but my own feeling. If you say no, thats ok, but dont expect the rest of us not to make our own arrangements without you. 800,000 can not stop 500million.
Also I think that Direct Democracy is not appropriate for such decisions and as of yet I have not heard an answer why it should be, only to stop corrupt irish politicians, which you yourself can vote out and fail to do. Thats your own fault. The rest of the world does ok with representative democracy.

Apparently not... The Netherlands, France...... Do you think it's healthy that an institution is so far removed from the opinions of the people it is supposed to represent?[/quote:1d1exvw5]
Why is far removed. We have European Members of Parliament and at the council of ministers the voice of the people of Ireland(or France etc) are heard through their representatives. We are not living in ancient greece were every man(and not women) could vote on everything. Its not possible with our huge populations.

[garlandgreen]

[quote=sofia_b][quote=garlandgreen]

Of course your country would know a lot about forcing other countries to give up their sovereignty against their will, given that you did that in 2 world wars. With all due respect we have made our decision, and if your people were given a referendum on this treaty, they too would likely vote no - a newspaper poll in 2005 found 96% would have voted no to the EU Constitution. And to be quite honest, if the EU wants to change from being a union of democratic nation states to a superstate bullying small countries into colonial-subjugation, then maybe remaining in it isn't so attractive after all. I favour EU membership but only as long as we get the the final say on how far Ireland is integrated politically into it. I am opposed to a Federal Europe, and the truth is that so are most Europeans, but their politicians who know this refuse to give them a referendum for that reason.

Thats why you cannot have direct democracy.

Ja mein fuhrerin.

Is this your idea of humour?

Sarcasm. I do not take kindly to being told my no vote doesn't count for anything. It's called democracy, and Irish history is very different from German history. And regarding Germany's ban on national referenda, remember that Hitler's referenda were held after he did something - not beforehand e.g. after the Anschluss with Austria, after he merged the presidency and the Chancellorship. In contrast, all Irish referenda came before something was done. In that context, the reasons for referenda being banned in Germany do not stand up to scrutiny.

Ah the famous British sarcasm. You are a bunch of little englanders after all.
OK that was a joke(Sorry)

But the Irish No will be respected. I am just making a suggestion as an individual who has contacts here that you the irish people do something about it or your place in europe will be in jeopardy. That is not a threat but my own feeling. If you say no, thats ok, but dont expect the rest of us not to make our own arrangements without you. 800,000 can not stop 500million.
Also I think that Direct Democracy is not appropriate for such decisions and as of yet I have not heard an answer why it should be, only to stop corrupt irish politicians, which you yourself can vote out and fail to do. Thats your own fault. The rest of the world does ok with representative democracy.

Apparently not... The Netherlands, France...... Do you think it's healthy that an institution is so far removed from the opinions of the people it is supposed to represent?[/quote:2bnbbxa9]
Why is far removed. We have European Members of Parliament and at the council of ministers the voice of the people of Ireland(or France etc) are heard through their representatives. We are not living in ancient greece were every man(and not women) could vote on everything. Its not possible with our huge populations.[/quote:2bnbbxa9]
So why the no votes?

[sofia_b]

[quote=garlandgreen][quote=sofia_b]

Of course your country would know a lot about forcing other countries to give up their sovereignty against their will, given that you did that in 2 world wars. With all due respect we have made our decision, and if your people were given a referendum on this treaty, they too would likely vote no - a newspaper poll in 2005 found 96% would have voted no to the EU Constitution. And to be quite honest, if the EU wants to change from being a union of democratic nation states to a superstate bullying small countries into colonial-subjugation, then maybe remaining in it isn't so attractive after all. I favour EU membership but only as long as we get the the final say on how far Ireland is integrated politically into it. I am opposed to a Federal Europe, and the truth is that so are most Europeans, but their politicians who know this refuse to give them a referendum for that reason.

Thats why you cannot have direct democracy.

Ja mein fuhrerin.

Is this your idea of humour?

Sarcasm. I do not take kindly to being told my no vote doesn't count for anything. It's called democracy, and Irish history is very different from German history. And regarding Germany's ban on national referenda, remember that Hitler's referenda were held after he did something - not beforehand e.g. after the Anschluss with Austria, after he merged the presidency and the Chancellorship. In contrast, all Irish referenda came before something was done. In that context, the reasons for referenda being banned in Germany do not stand up to scrutiny.

Ah the famous British sarcasm. You are a bunch of little englanders after all.
OK that was a joke(Sorry)

But the Irish No will be respected. I am just making a suggestion as an individual who has contacts here that you the irish people do something about it or your place in europe will be in jeopardy. That is not a threat but my own feeling. If you say no, thats ok, but dont expect the rest of us not to make our own arrangements without you. 800,000 can not stop 500million.
Also I think that Direct Democracy is not appropriate for such decisions and as of yet I have not heard an answer why it should be, only to stop corrupt irish politicians, which you yourself can vote out and fail to do. Thats your own fault. The rest of the world does ok with representative democracy.

Apparently not... The Netherlands, France...... Do you think it's healthy that an institution is so far removed from the opinions of the people it is supposed to represent?

Why is far removed. We have European Members of Parliament and at the council of ministers the voice of the people of Ireland(or France etc) are heard through their representatives. We are not living in ancient greece were every man(and not women) could vote on everything. Its not possible with our huge populations.[/quote:lbj5i2wa]
So why the no votes?[/quote:lbj5i2wa]

The 6 million dollar question which nobody in Europe will be able to figure out because each Irish, French and Dutch person is an individual and that might include an individual racist who does not like people because of the colour of their skin or a religious extremist that wants to ban abortion or an owner of a business that unfairly cheats the rest of europe by cutting corporation taxes. If all europe worked this way nothing would move as we would all pulling in different directions. I find it amazing that I have to explain this as it seems to be taken for granted everywhere else.
Thats why its important to keep the important decisions to elected representatives who can see the big picture.

[ibis]

[quote=StripeyCat]

If you are not happy with teh irish politicians for being corrupt or whatever then, then like Ibis, I say please feel free to vote them out next time.

Who would I vote for though? The political "elite" decided en masse that Lisbon was a good thing. (Thank God for Mary Lou McDonald. I'll certainly be voting for her next time, but since the "elite" control the media, I won't be holding my breath for a Sinn Fein landslide. )

If Ireland leaves the EU it will be the peoples fault, but what about the future generations who will be left in poverty? Thats why you cannot have direct democracy.

Yeah right. We'll be scratching around in the dirt like the Norwegians...[/quote:2rot7ob8]

Yeah, because we've got all that oil - totally undeveloped, unproven, and uneconomic except at the highest oil prices in history.

[FutureTaoiseach]

I dont wish Ireland out, and please rethink whether the EU or the "elites" are being undemocratic.
First do you think that if a country already has representative democracy that it needs direct democracy?
Second why does Ireland have or need this?

With regard to the democratic wishes of the French and Dutch, the EU actually stopped the European constitution and made the reform Treaty. As usual nobody can tell why the French said no. Do you think we should interview Mr. Le Pen or his supporters? Thats what direct democracy leads to. So the European leaders tried a new approach and dropped symbols. There is no need to go to a referendum there because the will and sovereignty is contained in the mandate given to their elected representatives. The French voted for Sarkozy, knowing that he would support europe. If they were really against Europe they would have voted for Le Pen. This is why the referendums give such unsatisfactory results. No one has the big picture.

The Irish Constitution says that sovereignty rests with the people, not just the politicians. The reality is that you probably don't know what is in this treaty, beyond propaganda from the German elite about is being "anti-European" to oppose it, which is really a Trojan Horse to push through provisions that the people would not support if they had a referendum on it. And regarding elected representatives, they can be corrupted by bribery of being offered jobs in Brussels, and history shows the dangers of giving elected politicians too much power. For example in 1800 the Irish Parliament voted for the Act of Union, abolishing the Irish Parliament, whereas in 1940, the French Parliament voted by 569-80 to set up the Vichy Regime that collaborated with the Nazis. So with all due respect, I think I'll take our form of democracy over yours any day. The Irish political system is a mix of direct and indirect democracy. The politicians are elected to exercise sovereignty - not to give it away. The reality is that democracy is more important to the people of Europe than other considerations like furthering grand-designs dreamt up by a remote political-elite, many of them unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

Yeah, because we've got all that oil - totally undeveloped, unproven, and uneconomic except at the highest oil prices in history.

So if we vote no we'll be scratching around in the dirt like the Swiss then?

[borntorum]

So why the no votes?

Because according to sofia_b, the No voters are racists or religious extremists or

an owner of a business that unfairly cheats the rest of europe by cutting corporation taxes

And the mask of the eurofederalists slips a little further...

Here's a bit of advice for you, sofie_b love, it's the arrogance of people like you and the rest of the EU elites who disparage the 'common people' openly or otherwise that led to a lot of people, including me, voting No.

And has been pointed out by others on here, we've had a democracy and a Constitution in this country that has protected our rights for a long time, a lot longer than what most of continental Europe has had, not least Germany

[sofia_b]

And regarding elected representatives, they can be corrupted by bribery of being offered jobs in Brussels, and history shows the dangers of giving elected politicians too much power. For example in 1800 the Irish Parliament voted for the Act of Union, abolishing the Irish Parliament, whereas in 1940, the French Parliament voted by 569-80 to set up the Vichy Regime that collaborated with the Nazis. So with all due respect, I think I'll take our form of democracy over yours any day.

Thank you FutureTaoiseach. This is a good reply but I would contend that the act of union of 1800 and the Vichy vote violated basic law. In such an instance the result was not valid. This should be tested in the law courts.

I do also think(as an aisde) that the northern Ireland state is illegal due to the illegality of the 1800 act of union, but that is another story. If the irish people or german people have a treaty imposed on them which contradicts their basic rights, and it is sold to them by corrupt politicians then I would support them to usurp the establishment. I still dont understand the need for direct democracy though.

[garlandgreen]

[quote=sofia_b][quote=garlandgreen][quote="sofia_b":16eqnng3]

Of course your country would know a lot about forcing other countries to give up their sovereignty against their will, given that you did that in 2 world wars. With all due respect we have made our decision, and if your people were given a referendum on this treaty, they too would likely vote no - a newspaper poll in 2005 found 96% would have voted no to the EU Constitution. And to be quite honest, if the EU wants to change from being a union of democratic nation states to a superstate bullying small countries into colonial-subjugation, then maybe remaining in it isn't so attractive after all. I favour EU membership but only as long as we get the the final say on how far Ireland is integrated politically into it. I am opposed to a Federal Europe, and the truth is that so are most Europeans, but their politicians who know this refuse to give them a referendum for that reason.

Thats why you cannot have direct democracy.

Ja mein fuhrerin.

Is this your idea of humour?

Sarcasm. I do not take kindly to being told my no vote doesn't count for anything. It's called democracy, and Irish history is very different from German history. And regarding Germany's ban on national referenda, remember that Hitler's referenda were held after he did something - not beforehand e.g. after the Anschluss with Austria, after he merged the presidency and the Chancellorship. In contrast, all Irish referenda came before something was done. In that context, the reasons for referenda being banned in Germany do not stand up to scrutiny.

Ah the famous British sarcasm. You are a bunch of little englanders after all.
OK that was a joke(Sorry)

But the Irish No will be respected. I am just making a suggestion as an individual who has contacts here that you the irish people do something about it or your place in europe will be in jeopardy. That is not a threat but my own feeling. If you say no, thats ok, but dont expect the rest of us not to make our own arrangements without you. 800,000 can not stop 500million.
Also I think that Direct Democracy is not appropriate for such decisions and as of yet I have not heard an answer why it should be, only to stop corrupt irish politicians, which you yourself can vote out and fail to do. Thats your own fault. The rest of the world does ok with representative democracy.

Apparently not... The Netherlands, France...... Do you think it's healthy that an institution is so far removed from the opinions of the people it is supposed to represent?

Why is far removed. We have European Members of Parliament and at the council of ministers the voice of the people of Ireland(or France etc) are heard through their representatives. We are not living in ancient greece were every man(and not women) could vote on everything. Its not possible with our huge populations.[/quote:16eqnng3]
So why the no votes?[/quote:16eqnng3]

The 6 million dollar question which nobody in Europe will be able to figure out because each Irish, French and Dutch person is an individual and that might include an individual racist who does not like people because of the colour of their skin or a religious extremist that wants to ban abortion or an owner of a business that unfairly cheats the rest of europe by cutting corporation taxes. If all europe worked this way nothing would move as we would all pulling in different directions. I find it amazing that I have to explain this as it seems to be taken for granted everywhere else.
Thats why its important to keep the important decisions to elected representatives who can see the big picture.[/quote:16eqnng3]

So why are these "representatives" if they are to be worthy of the word unable to communicate that message to the masses. If they are incapable of understanding then they are incapable of making the decision on our behalf