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  1. #71
    Zyklon B Zyklon B is offline

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    Re: Trouble Between Orange Bigots and Liverpool people

    Quote Originally Posted by DOD
    Quote Originally Posted by ArtyQueing
    As a point of interest isn't Liverpool traditionally the protestant team and everton the catholic one ?
    I would imagine the emphasis on the Liverpool fans in the irish bar was probably dealing with that myth, incase people still believe it. While I'm obviously not from Liverpool, I do know they have support from all sides. Liverpool FC was founded after Everton left Anfield in a row over rent. As Far as I know, there was no obvious religious connotations.
    You would be wrong then, wouldn't you?

    While Everton was originally founded as a Methodist schoolboys club, it has a strong lasting association with Merseyside Catholic Irish. The founder of Liverpool FC (originally called "Everton Football Club and Athletic Grounds company Ltd" or "Everton Athletic") was John Houlding, an Orangeman. So were most of the original directors including John McKenna. Houlding was a member of both the Working Mans' Conservative Association and the Liverpool Protestant Association, the latter morphed into George Wise's Liverpool Protestant Party, which contested Liverpool Corporation wards Netherfields and St Domingo's as late as 1973.



    Everton acquired Catholic support ever since a certain Dr. James Clement Baxter joined the board of directors at the turn of the 19th Century (also, the neighbouring Scotland road and Vauxhall areas were and continue to be, overwhelmingly Catholic). Obviously, Catholics were by no means the sole supporters of Everton (which commands the support of most Liverpudlians), but it is noted nonetheless. Geography plays a part (North-West versus South-East), although this relects the religious divide.

    Dr James Clement Baxter joined the club, along with George Mahon, in 1889 and was to play a huge part in Everton's early history. Were Mahon was a leading figure in the local Methodist community, Baxter held the same esteem among the city's Catholics. He was educated at St Francis Xavier College and became a physician of some renown amongst the local Irish community. He also made a name for himself in the world of politics and represented the Liberal Party on the City Council from 1906 to 1920.

    During his association with Everton he was to hold several positions form medical advisor to director and chairman but his biggest contribution came when he joined forces with Mahon when the fight with Houlding came to a climax in 1892. With the destiny of the club relying on a move away from Anfield, and the clutches of John Houlding, money was needed to build a new ground on the recently aquired plot of land on Goodison Road, called Mere Green.

    The finances needed for the building work were raised in various ways and along with money already held by the club the ground was ready for the start of the 1892-93, but the club had stretched itself to its limits. George Mahon knew that a poor season could seriously damage the stability of the club, this is when Dr Baxter stepped in. He advanced Everton 1000 in the shape of an interest free loan and asked for no security, thus establishing the club's future.

    At a stormy AGM on 5 June 1895 George Mahon resigned as the club's chairman and reluctantly Dr Baxter took over the leadership. He was relieved to later find out that his old friend had been induced to resume his position.
    The late Eric Heffer MP (Liverpool Walton -1960-70s) once remarked he was obliged to associate himself with Everton FC (as opposed to the Protestant and formerly Tory-supporting Liverpool FC) throughout his career.
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  2. #72
    Liverpoolblue Liverpoolblue is offline

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    Re: Trouble Between Orange Bigots and Liverpool people

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklon B
    Quote Originally Posted by DOD
    Quote Originally Posted by ArtyQueing
    As a point of interest isn't Liverpool traditionally the protestant team and everton the catholic one ?
    I would imagine the emphasis on the Liverpool fans in the irish bar was probably dealing with that myth, incase people still believe it. While I'm obviously not from Liverpool, I do know they have support from all sides. Liverpool FC was founded after Everton left Anfield in a row over rent. As Far as I know, there was no obvious religious connotations.
    You would be wrong then, wouldn't you?

    While Everton was originally founded as a Methodist schoolboys club, it has a strong lasting association with Merseyside Catholic Irish. The founder of Liverpool FC (originally called "Everton Football Club and Athletic Grounds company Ltd" or "Everton Athletic") was John Houlding, an Orangeman. So were most of the original directors including John McKenna. Houlding was a member of both the Working Mans' Conservative Association and the Liverpool Protestant Association, the latter morphed into George Wise's Liverpool Protestant Party, which contested Liverpool Corporation wards Netherfields and St Domingo's as late as 1973.



    Everton acquired Catholic support ever since a certain Dr. James Clement Baxter joined the board of directors at the turn of the 19th Century (also, the neighbouring Scotland road and Vauxhall areas were and continue to be, overwhelmingly Catholic). Obviously, Catholics were by no means the sole supporters of Everton (which commands the support of most Liverpudlians), but it is noted nonetheless. Geography plays a part (North-West versus South-East), although this relects the religious divide.

    Dr James Clement Baxter joined the club, along with George Mahon, in 1889 and was to play a huge part in Everton's early history. Were Mahon was a leading figure in the local Methodist community, Baxter held the same esteem among the city's Catholics. He was educated at St Francis Xavier College and became a physician of some renown amongst the local Irish community. He also made a name for himself in the world of politics and represented the Liberal Party on the City Council from 1906 to 1920.

    During his association with Everton he was to hold several positions form medical advisor to director and chairman but his biggest contribution came when he joined forces with Mahon when the fight with Houlding came to a climax in 1892. With the destiny of the club relying on a move away from Anfield, and the clutches of John Houlding, money was needed to build a new ground on the recently aquired plot of land on Goodison Road, called Mere Green.

    The finances needed for the building work were raised in various ways and along with money already held by the club the ground was ready for the start of the 1892-93, but the club had stretched itself to its limits. George Mahon knew that a poor season could seriously damage the stability of the club, this is when Dr Baxter stepped in. He advanced Everton 1000 in the shape of an interest free loan and asked for no security, thus establishing the club's future.

    At a stormy AGM on 5 June 1895 George Mahon resigned as the club's chairman and reluctantly Dr Baxter took over the leadership. He was relieved to later find out that his old friend had been induced to resume his position.
    The late Eric Heffer MP (Liverpool Walton -1960-70s) once remarked he was obliged to associate himself with Everton FC (as opposed to the Protestant and formerly Tory-supporting Liverpool FC) throughout his career.

    Interesting information there. I think most Scousers wouldn't be aware of that nevermind supporters from outside the city. This would explain the historical religious affiliation for some if not all Scouse football supporters. Everton and Liverpool supporters' families are known to be mixed though and I hate to say it but Liverpool's successes in the 1970s & 1980s probably won over a lot of potential supporters who might have otherwise supported Everton. On the subject of the old communities among the changes which uprooted people was the building of the Mersey Tunnel which meant that a lot of properties in the Scotland Road area were knocked down. A great example of how the old catholic community has thrived despite all the demolitions is the community led "Eldonians" housing association.

    http://www.eldonians.org.uk/podium/eld/ ... al_context

    Lb
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  3. #73
    toxic avenger toxic avenger is offline
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    Re: Trouble Between Orange Bigots and Liverpool people

    Orange scousers! Can you imagine the smell of burning martyr, the special pleading victim-whinge must be something else...

    Oh, and for the record, friends of mine at school wore those bobble hats with half-Liverpool/half-Celtic sides. Kenny Dalglish was universally revered by them.
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  4. #74
    Liverpoolblue Liverpoolblue is offline

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    Re: Trouble Between Orange Bigots and Liverpool people

    I don't remember seeing any Liverpool/Celtic ones on Merseyside only Liverpool/Rangers & Everton/Celtic. Next time I watch old derby matches from the 80s on tape I'll look out for the hats.

    Lb
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  5. #75
    DOD DOD is offline

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    Re: Trouble Between Orange Bigots and Liverpool people

    Quote Originally Posted by Liverpoolblue
    Everton and Liverpool both originate from a protestant church football team called Saint Domingo FC. The team became separate from the church to allow boys and men of all religions to play for them. The team became Everton FC and one of the early grounds was Anfield. Everton left Anfield to move to Goodison Park and Liverpool FC was established to play at Anfield. The religious affiliation thing could have origins in a number of different things. Maybe the locations of the present stadiums. Everton and Anfield were supposedly more protestant than catholic areas. The Vauxhall and kirkdale areas were supposed to be more catholic than protestant. A lot of people from Vauxhall and Kirkdale seem to support Everton FC maybe it's because the location of Everton's ground Goodison Park is nearer to those areas.

    Another theory is Everton in the 1950s had a team that was predominantly made up of ROI internationals. A friend of my Dad's remembered seeing a load of catholic priests all sitting in a row watching Everton. Incidently Everton don't play in the district of Everton they play in Walton. LFC is actually nearer to the district of Everton. The areas of Everton and Vauxhall face each other and the old sectarian dividing line was Scotland Road. One side of the road protestant, one side catholic. These two communities were broken up to an extent when the houses were demolished and the old prejudices started to die out when those people moved to other areas. Religion in Liverpool doesn't divide people like it did in the past.

    In the 1980s there were woolly hats worn by Everton and Liverpool fans linked to the Glasgow teams. The Everton one was half Everton, half Celtic, the Liverpool one was half Liverpool, half Rangers. Read into that what you will. There's at least one Everton song I can think of that mentions hating Liverpool and Rangers but I've heard one or two people at the match sing about hating Liverpool and Celtic instead so the jury's out on that one. In reality both teams have supporters of both religions. Some people would like to see a connection but it doesn't really stick. I've heard one or two Evertonians jokingly exalting the importance of being a catholic and an Evertonian but only in fun. My Dad was at the other semi-final that day in 1989 so I count my blessings Everton weren't playing at Hillsborough.

    Lb
    We could go all day with these statistics. I did see a half Liverpool, half Rangers Scarf on a young boy, when I was at the Reading match in Anfield earlier this year, but I also saw Celtic scarves on sale and I bought an 'eire reds' pin. In the club shop, I bought a CD with Liverpool FC songs that was sung by a band (albeit they used a different name for official merchandise) that I recognised as the rebel ballad band Celtic freedom. A lot has been made of Scouser Tommy having a part of the song to the air of the sash, but there are a lot more LFC songs with airs of republican and Irish ballads.

    In short Liverpool has a lot of people with strong views on the North one way or the other and it appears to be divided relatively evenly among the club. I certainly don't think Walter Smith would have managed an openly 'Irish' team. The best thing is to just not get into politics with people from Liverpool unless you already know them.
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  6. #76
    DOD DOD is offline

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    Re: Trouble Between Orange Bigots and Liverpool people

    Quote Originally Posted by toxic avenger
    Orange scousers! Can you imagine the smell of burning martyr, the special pleading victim-whinge must be something else...

    Oh, and for the record, friends of mine at school wore those bobble hats with half-Liverpool/half-Celtic sides. Kenny Dalglish was universally revered by them.
    Kenny Dalglish who ironically enough used to support Rangers. I think this is all coincidental at this stage. Both clubs have relatively mixed support.
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  7. #77
    DOD DOD is offline

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    Re: Trouble Between Orange Bigots and Liverpool people

    Quote Originally Posted by Liverpoolblue
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklon B
    Quote Originally Posted by DOD
    Quote Originally Posted by ArtyQueing
    As a point of interest isn't Liverpool traditionally the protestant team and everton the catholic one ?
    I would imagine the emphasis on the Liverpool fans in the irish bar was probably dealing with that myth, incase people still believe it. While I'm obviously not from Liverpool, I do know they have support from all sides. Liverpool FC was founded after Everton left Anfield in a row over rent. As Far as I know, there was no obvious religious connotations.
    You would be wrong then, wouldn't you?

    While Everton was originally founded as a Methodist schoolboys club, it has a strong lasting association with Merseyside Catholic Irish. The founder of Liverpool FC (originally called "Everton Football Club and Athletic Grounds company Ltd" or "Everton Athletic") was John Houlding, an Orangeman. So were most of the original directors including John McKenna. Houlding was a member of both the Working Mans' Conservative Association and the Liverpool Protestant Association, the latter morphed into George Wise's Liverpool Protestant Party, which contested Liverpool Corporation wards Netherfields and St Domingo's as late as 1973.



    Everton acquired Catholic support ever since a certain Dr. James Clement Baxter joined the board of directors at the turn of the 19th Century (also, the neighbouring Scotland road and Vauxhall areas were and continue to be, overwhelmingly Catholic). Obviously, Catholics were by no means the sole supporters of Everton (which commands the support of most Liverpudlians), but it is noted nonetheless. Geography plays a part (North-West versus South-East), although this relects the religious divide.

    Dr James Clement Baxter joined the club, along with George Mahon, in 1889 and was to play a huge part in Everton's early history. Were Mahon was a leading figure in the local Methodist community, Baxter held the same esteem among the city's Catholics. He was educated at St Francis Xavier College and became a physician of some renown amongst the local Irish community. He also made a name for himself in the world of politics and represented the Liberal Party on the City Council from 1906 to 1920.

    During his association with Everton he was to hold several positions form medical advisor to director and chairman but his biggest contribution came when he joined forces with Mahon when the fight with Houlding came to a climax in 1892. With the destiny of the club relying on a move away from Anfield, and the clutches of John Houlding, money was needed to build a new ground on the recently aquired plot of land on Goodison Road, called Mere Green.

    The finances needed for the building work were raised in various ways and along with money already held by the club the ground was ready for the start of the 1892-93, but the club had stretched itself to its limits. George Mahon knew that a poor season could seriously damage the stability of the club, this is when Dr Baxter stepped in. He advanced Everton 1000 in the shape of an interest free loan and asked for no security, thus establishing the club's future.

    At a stormy AGM on 5 June 1895 George Mahon resigned as the club's chairman and reluctantly Dr Baxter took over the leadership. He was relieved to later find out that his old friend had been induced to resume his position.
    The late Eric Heffer MP (Liverpool Walton -1960-70s) once remarked he was obliged to associate himself with Everton FC (as opposed to the Protestant and formerly Tory-supporting Liverpool FC) throughout his career.

    Interesting information there. I think most Scousers wouldn't be aware of that nevermind supporters from outside the city. This would explain the historical religious affiliation for some if not all Scouse football supporters. Everton and Liverpool supporters' families are known to be mixed though and I hate to say it but Liverpool's successes in the 1970s & 1980s probably won over a lot of potential supporters who might have otherwise supported Everton. On the subject of the old communities among the changes which uprooted people was the building of the Mersey Tunnel which meant that a lot of properties in the Scotland Road area were knocked down. A great example of how the old catholic community has thrived despite all the demolitions is the community led "Eldonians" housing association.

    http://www.eldonians.org.uk/podium/eld/ ... al_context

    Lb
    Most scousers wouldn't be aware because it is at best coincidental. If you delve into something trying to prove something, you will find the proof. Bottom line is, it probably made absolutely no difference. Lets not forget, this cretin syklon B is a far-right xenophobe who after all named himself after a plan to exterminate jews, so his whinging over prejudice is a bit rich. Whatever existed in the 1890s is coincidental to today. Everton played in Blue (the colour associated with most unionist teams, made no big point of an Irish association and never attempted to be 'an Irish club'. The dispute with Liverpool was largely to do with rent. Maybe religion had a small insignificant part to do with a side issue, but you'd have to be pretty pedantic to come out with this Everton =Catholic, Liverpool = Protestant horse-************************e. Whatever the situation may have been in the early 1900s it has ling since changed. The divide in Glasgow soccer is clear, not in Liverpool. If it was,I doubt Celtic supporters would have Hillsborough banners made out with the crests of Celtic and Liverpool.
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  8. #78
    alonso alonso is offline

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    Re: Trouble Between Orange Bigots and Liverpool people

    damn Proddy scousers

    [youtube:2chawswt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfgqi-UahE8[/youtube:2chawswt]
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  9. #79
    Liverpoolblue Liverpoolblue is offline

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    Re: Trouble Between Orange Bigots and Liverpool people

    They must have given up their sashes as part of the deal to sign Kenny Dalglish in the 70s

    There's plenty of information around that links Everton to catholics and Liverpool to protestants but it's no big deal. It's more historical than anything else just like the al' fella who sits by me in the match said at the derby last season when the Reds were singing their version of The Fields Of Athenry- "Those fellas all used to be protestants years ago". Times change and it's a good thing that football on Merseyside is mixed.

    Lb
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  10. #80
    caulfield caulfield is offline
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    Re: Trouble Between Orange Bigots and Liverpool people

    mmm...."Trouble between orange bigots and liverpool people". More like a fight between 2 groups of scousers. Not unknown in Liverpool. I suspect drink had been taken. There is still a little bit of Northern sectarianism in Liverpool but its very low key , thank god. As always there are bigots on both sides.
    As for which team is protestant and which is catholic? Well that really is in the past. The cheers of "Rangers- Celtic" are long forgotten. There are lots of Irish fans at Anfield - North, South, protestant , catholic, tricolours, red hands - never seen or heard any trouble. They all hate Man U more than they hate another irish red! I dont think its an issue at all at Everton.
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