Irish government to officially mark "Potato Famine"

[Trefor]

The fact famines are part of the history of most countries and there have been famines in England and Scotland is ignored

That's interesting - never heard of an English famine, nor a Scottish one for that matter - unless you're on about the so called Highland Potato Famine, which was pretty tough, but wasn't really a famine. You need people to starve to death for that.

[pogon]

Tell me, do you think that the British administration at the time had no impact on this famine whatsoever?

Which professional historian states this?

Do you think the potato blight was the single and only factor that lead to the death and exile of so much of the population?

Again, which professional historian has stated this?

You are just setting up strawman arguments.

There is an abundance of factual credible evidence to suggest that the British did infact play a large part in what went on, infact Tony Blair appolagised on behalf of their wrong doings.
I suppose he's one of those pesky republicans inventing things also, along with historians?

Who exactly do you mean by 'the British'?

The population residing on the island of Britain at that time?

If so, what percentage of 'the British' were responsible for the famine?

Every report i have ever read on the famine shows that the social and politcal decisions at the time played a huge part in the famine, even that silly wiki site acknowledges the fact.
The Irish government is the problem here, not the British and its nothing to do with Republicanism.

I believe you, rather than the wiki site, are 'silly'.

Again, who is denying that social and political decisions at the time played a part in the famine?

For sure no professional historian, British or Irish.

If the Irish government want to be appolagists for past tyrants then all they are doing is disgracing their own history and acting like cowering weaklings.

Does the Irish government wish to do this?

Could you provide evidence of this?

Or are you merely setting up yet another strawman argument?

The Irish were forced to live in such poverty through mass land conviscation and extremely oppressive laws, they were starving before the blight even hit.

But everyone who acknowledges facts are all involved in this Republican conspiracy eh?

I believe most, if not all, historians recognise this.

In 1845, 24% of all Irish tenant farms were of 0.4 to 2 hectares (one to five acres) in size, while 40% were of two to six hectares (five to fifteen acres). Holdings were so small that only potatoes — no other crop — would suffice to feed a family. The British Government reported, shortly before the Great Hunger, that poverty was so wide-spread that one third of all Irish small holdings could not support their families, after paying their rent

Which historian denies what you have written above?

[pogon]

According to Fogarty on irishholocaust.org, if I remember correctly he states that he found old British army records in some archive in britian which stated the troop numbers deployed throughout this period as being 200,000. He said that these records were subsequently removed. It would be interesting to see what the records were from those days and by this I mean all sources that may provide clues, such as the purchase of equipment by the british army around this time that may give some idea of their thinking and intent. Horses, accomodation, ancillary equipment, the purchase of implements useful for wrecking and burning houses in large numbers for example. Surely much can be gleaned from ancillary sources.

Nothing at all of any value can be gained from Fogarty as he just makes stuff up.

Taking evidence from his site completely discredits your views.

[pogon]

what other word you could use for lack of action taken and the tragic results that came about.

It's a popular idea and the cornerstone of their 'we are innocent' routine that the British are regularly said to have been guilty of inaction during this time. But there was a great deal of activity throughout these years by the British almost all of which tended to exacerbate the situation and add to the death toll. In order to underesource the workhouses to the level of them becoming death factories required meetings, minutes, correspondence, acts of parliament, civic liaison, military and judicial oversight. All these things came together and decisions were taken which led directly to the deaths of thousands in the workhouses.
Ensuring a situation where several million people were afraid of the efficacy of the government dictats - such as for example being afraid of transportation if found to be destitute in the open after dark or being afraid of being evicted for having helped evictees - would presumably require the deployment of massive and ubiquitous force. We generally have the impression however, or are given the impression, that a few soldiers and a few constables turned up when required and that the military presence was far from overbearing. This could hardly be a right impression though, could it? We're talking about 2-4 million people starved and evicted over the course of 5 years. What do you think it takes to do that and who do you think organised the logistics, food, billeting and pay for all those forces?

According to Fogarty on irishholocaust.org, if I remember correctly he states that he found old British army records in some archive in britian which stated the troop numbers deployed throughout this period as being 200,000. He said that these records were subsequently removed. It would be interesting to see what the records were from those days and by this I mean all sources that may provide clues, such as the purchase of equipment by the british army around this time that may give some idea of their thinking and intent. Horses, accomodation, ancillary equipment, the purchase of implements useful for wrecking and burning houses in large numbers for example. Surely much can be gleaned from ancillary sources.

The other great 'get out of jail card' that the british use is that this was caused by a widespread fungal infection, which they could have no control over, which could not be planned and which therefore absolves them of responsibility. However this 'famine' occurred over 5 years. Not one year, not two years. Not three years nor four years. Five years long. During this time millions were evicted, consistently, into certain death. Laws were enacted, meetings held, troops deployed during all this time and by far the greater part of this activity resulted in the mass death of the people. To hold up some half-baked PR attempts at relief as being the definition of british activity in ireland at the time and thereby finding them responsible merely of inactivity, lateness and negligence, while ignoring by far the greater part of the resources actually deployed by the british during this time - resouces which directly contributed to the death of millions - is cretinous in the extreme. It is quite simply nonsense.

It would not surprise me in the least that proof of british intent does exist in the form of written records of explicit policy objectives but that such records have been assiduously buried, removed, etc. It would seem that we are required, as Irish people looking for justice about this time, to produce documentary evidence of a confession by those in charge at the time in order to be heard at all. We must then measure up to Jewish history if the death and exile of millions is to be considered anything other than an unfortunate accident. Such are the tasks laid before us by the ************************heads who wish to deny everything, the same people who reach for the disgusting rhetorical device that because we descend from the ranks of the survivors it is us, not the british, who should feel ashamed and guilty.

Such people are ideologically committed to not hearing and are inured to common sense. Even when you lay before them some of the documentary evidence they seek apparently it's not sufficient enough, not highlighted enough within the popular consciousness, to be of any value. Such as Clarendon, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, writing to Russell the british prime minister:

He (Twisleton) thinks that the destitution here [in Ireland] is so horrible, and the indifference of the House of Commons is so manifest, that he is an unfit agent for a policy that must be one of extermination.

or Clarendon again writing to Russell:
[quote:26grj01s]I do not think there is another legislature in Europe that would disregard such suffering as now exists in the west of Ireland, or coldly persist in a policy of extermination.

That's three people of some influence in all of this - the Poor Law Commissioner, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and the british Prime Minister - who were aware of the word 'extermination' at the time; 2 of them asserted it and the other no doubt 'noted their views', as he might have said. For the modern deniers this is not enough however.

Excellent post, a chara.[/quote:26grj01s]

Is there anything you wouldn't believe Cael?

Anything you would regard as being exaggerated and hysterical?

Personally, I don't believe there is anything capable of stretching your credulity to breaking point.

[Young Ned]

Although their ancestors experienced the effects, they can hardly have had a clear picture of the causes, living in isolated villages.

People being subjected to a genocidal extermination generally do know exactly why its being done, and have a very clear picture of the causes - even in isolated villages.

Outrage from Americans - including Irish Americans - at "genocidal extermination" doesn't exactly square with their treatment of the American Indians.

That's crap. If their families left during the famine, why are you trying to blame them for genocide of American Indians? What level of power do you think these new Irish immigrants wielded in American society?

If you want to say their service in the American military during the civil war, I'll remind you they served on both sides, and also plenty of Irish have served in the British armed forces, so arguably are also an instrument of genocide.

[Alliance]

i love these threads....

[alexo]

Read some mad crap on this thread.

Time for some music

Luka Bloom - An cathair mhór Chicago. At the beginning I have added Richard Harris' speech from The Field. What an actor!


http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=xvEcsN__VoI

At the end I have put in an offical quote from the 1951 census of Ireland. To me it sums up the whole thing and the attitude of the ruling classes at the time to what happened here.

[Cael]

Is there anything you wouldn't believe Cael?

Anything you would regard as being exaggerated and hysterical?

Personally, I don't believe there is anything capable of stretching your credulity to breaking point.

Anything except every deranged word that comes form your keyboard, Pogo.