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  1. #21
    firefly123 firefly123 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by between the bridges View Post
    Moi is sure ye do, regularly...
    Good for the pro(FREE)state
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  2. #22
    blokesbloke blokesbloke is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by between the bridges View Post
    Free the Lakeland Kingdom...
    Where's that?
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  3. #23
    Breanainn Breanainn is offline

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    As for the general thrust of the OP, I would suggest that secession ultimately requires a clear cultural distinctiveness between the particular region and the governing nation (could Lombardy or Bavaria, for example, meet this criterium), the region would ideally have a strong basis for economic viability post-independence (though Ireland notably lacked this in the Free State era), and the secessionist area must demonstrate a historic political tradition of constitutional nationalism (where the democratic system allows this).
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  4. #24
    Socratus O' Pericles Socratus O' Pericles is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    The argument you've quoted above works (or is said to work) under the assumption that we lack "an account of the normative significance of the fact of occupancy".

    In other words - if the people of Catalonia are entitled to live in their own state, we need an account that explains why their state should correspond with the particular piece of territory they currently occupy.

    It seems to me that coming up with such an account isn't likely to be as difficult as Buchanan supposes.
    I find that vaguely unstisfactory in the sense that Spain is a Constitutional Democracy on which Constitution the forebears of the current Cataloninas had a democratic vote and they strongly endorsed it:


    Catalonia 4,398,173 67.91 2,701,870 95.15 137,845 4.85


    Now the secession of Catalonia (proposed) affects all the interested parties who were involved in the 1978 vote, does it not / Therefore
    the assertion that only some citizens (those in a particular portion of the polity) ought to be able unilaterally to decide a matter that will affect all citizens
    falls in this scenario?
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  5. #25
    Socratus O' Pericles Socratus O' Pericles is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by blokesbloke View Post
    Where's that?
    Fermanagh.
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  6. #26
    Socratus O' Pericles Socratus O' Pericles is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breanainn View Post
    As for the general thrust of the OP, I would suggest that secession ultimately requires a clear cultural distinctiveness between the particular region and the governing nation (could Lombardy or Bavaria, for example, meet this criterium), the region would ideally have a strong basis for economic viability post-independence (though Ireland notably lacked this in the Free State era), and the secessionist area must demonstrate a historic political tradition of constitutional nationalism (where the democratic system allows this).

    How would you define that?
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  7. #27
    Socratus O' Pericles Socratus O' Pericles is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by gracethepirate View Post
    I understand there are about 30 "micronations" in Australia. The most famous is Hutt River in Western Australia. It even has its own wikipedia page:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princi..._of_Hutt_River

    Australia is kind of bigger than Ireland. How many micronations can fit into the Island of Ireland? Will it bring about wars again as it was between the kingdoms before the poms invaded the second time around?
    Baile Breac Saor, Baile Breac Sona...........
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  8. #28
    Orbit v2 Orbit v2 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    There are a couple of different views about when secession can be justified.

    The two main ones are the Remedial Right Only view, which says that secession is only legitimate if necessary to protect people from the systematic violation of their fundamental rights, and freedom of association views which say that any majority large enough (or perhaps only national groups, on some versions) to protect the rights of those within the new state, should have the right to secede.
    Do you really think every problem has a (short) list of pat answers like that?

    What about the view that says - we want to secede and we're willing to fight to the death for it? And conversely, the same attitude wanting to hold the entity in place?
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  9. #29
    Gin Soaked Gin Soaked is online now
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    Salt water test......

    ***makes mental note to dump a few kgs of saxa into the Dodder....
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  10. #30
    Mercurial Mercurial is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socratus O' Pericles View Post
    I find that vaguely unstisfactory in the sense that Spain is a Constitutional Democracy on which Constitution the forebears of the current Cataloninas had a democratic vote and they strongly endorsed it:


    Catalonia 4,398,173 67.91 2,701,870 95.15 137,845 4.85


    Now the secession of Catalonia (proposed) affects all the interested parties who were involved in the 1978 vote, does it not / Therefore falls in this scenario?
    The stuff about all affected parties is very tricky. If you broaden it out, for example, it suggests that you and I should have a vote in the US presidential election, since we're affected by the outcome.
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