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  1. #141
    Socratus O' Pericles Socratus O' Pericles is online now
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    Palia in tres partes divisa est!
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  2. #142
    Deadlock Deadlock is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socratus O' Pericles View Post
    Palia in tres partes divisa est!
    What's good for France ...
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  3. #143
    Socratus O' Pericles Socratus O' Pericles is online now
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    What do you make of the UN's Third Committee's deliberations on the matter?

    VIEWED NARROWLY AS RIGHT TO SECEDE, SELF-DETERMINATION COULD THREATEN TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF STATES, THIRD COMMITTEE TOLD
    https://www.un.org/press/en/2002/gashc3708.doc.htm


    Watery milk if you ask me:

    PIO SCHURTI (Liechtenstein) said it was commonly believed that the United Nations had successfully concluded the process of decolonization quite some time ago. Unfortunately, however, by leaving that issue behind, the organization had also turned its attention from the right to self-determination. Sadly, self-determination was often treated as something like an “ugly duckling” in the pool of human rights. But that principle was a prerequisite to the enjoyment of all human rights. The potential of the right to self-determination remained to be explored to its fullest extent. The exercise of the right of self-determination could not be equated with attaining independence –- within or outside the framework of decolonization.


    Rather, it was the ongoing process through which peoples and communities freely determined their political status and freely pursued their economic, social and cultural development, he said. Many conflicts occurred because people seeking ways of asserting their distinctive identities found they had no accepted means by which they could express their own distinctiveness. As a consequence, they viewed independence as their only option. Liechtenstein was convinced that, if applied in a meaningful way, the right to self-determination could contribute to stability and to preserving the territorial integrity of States. However, viewed narrowly as the right to secede, that right was more likely to create problems than to offer solutions. Viewed more broadly as entailing various forms of self-administration and self-governance, it could offer new perspectives on peaceful coexistence falling short of secession and separate statehood.
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  4. #144
    Deadlock Deadlock is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socratus O' Pericles View Post
    What do you make of the UN's Third Committee's deliberations on the matter?



    https://www.un.org/press/en/2002/gashc3708.doc.htm


    Watery milk if you ask me:
    Indeed. I read an article in The Economist (no link - apologies) that as a result of the American Revolution, and the Civil War that followed, secession was an American Right, and the birthright of all. Is our claim, as a result of our historical and social imperatives, (and furthermore that of every once-subject of the British Empire) less valid?
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  5. #145
    McTell McTell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socratus O' Pericles View Post
    //
    Watery milk if you ask me:

    Soc will you sell me the monopoly in the Peoples' Democratic Republic of Ballybrack for my whipped cream products?

    We could start the haggling at €50, if you'll take euros?


    Cream Chargers Dublin | NOS, N2O, Nitrous Oxide, & Whippers Delivery


    "Cream-Chargers.org DOES NOT sell cream chargers. Nitrous Oxide is strictly for catering use only."
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  6. #146
    Socratus O' Pericles Socratus O' Pericles is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by McTell View Post
    Soc will you sell me the monopoly in the Peoples' Democratic Republic of Ballybrack for my whipped cream products?

    We could start the haggling at €50, if you'll take euros?


    Cream Chargers Dublin | NOS, N2O, Nitrous Oxide, & Whippers Delivery


    "Cream-Chargers.org DOES NOT sell cream chargers. Nitrous Oxide is strictly for catering use only."
    We'll be laughing all the way to the bank.
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  7. #147
    Roomtwo Roomtwo is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by McTell View Post
    Yes. There's complications due to the salt water / ex-colonial theories, as a free scotland will lead to a demand from the orkneys & shetlands to be free of scotland.

    O&S have most of the oil that will help pay scotland's bills.

    O&S were Norse and taken from Norway in 1468 (a tad less than our "700 years").
    We've been through this before.

    Scotland has massive renewables potential. The oil is useful for the credit rating and the transition to renewables.

    There's lots of good reasons for the Northern Isles to go for independence if they want it. The UK media make more of this than the people there do. For several decades dishonest news stories on all this have been planted by UK Labour and Tory govts.

    Independent Orkney and Shetland would be called enclaves within Scotland's waters and they'd have the right to resources from 12 miles of waters around them. The new oil fields and the vast majority of the renewables potential are further out. They'd still be rich tho.
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  8. #148
    Socratus O' Pericles Socratus O' Pericles is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roomtwo View Post
    We've been through this before.

    Scotland has massive renewables potential. The oil is useful for the credit rating and the transition to renewables.

    There's lots of good reasons for the Northern Isles to go for independence if they want it. The UK media make more of this than the people there do. For several decades dishonest news stories on all this have been planted by UK Labour and Tory govts.

    Independent Orkney and Shetland would be called enclaves within Scotland's waters and they'd have the right to resources from 12 miles of waters around them. The new oil fields and the vast majority of the renewables potential are further out. They'd still be rich tho.
    There's about 200 countries in the world now. This radio documentary reckoned there could be 8,000 autonomous regions, ultimately independent states. Is this a good thing? The Independent Republic of Shetlands, Orkneys, the Georgian enclaves, Kurdistan, the balkans genrally, italy , Belgium and the PROC..are these goods in your view.
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  9. #149
    Karloff Karloff is offline

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    It is interesting how much the progressive cause has embraced particular nationalisms and aspirations for homogenous demographics and then promote multiculturalism in others.

    We need to accept the rights of nations formed before a certain cut off point in history as a matter of sovereignty for them but apply different criteria to modern situations - modern situations like West Papua for example which was invaded and annexed in modern times with a phony referendum - those people need and have the utmost right to self determination.

    There are Western separatist movements which tend to be all about money or political ambition and there are Western movements like up the North were there was never proper governance ever. If you want to rule a territory first you cannot abuse the people there based on ethnic, religious issues if you do they have the right to secede.

    Some issues should be a matter of sovereign rights and some are about justice, it depends on the situation. A one size fits all solution will not work for obvious reasons, a might makes right heavy emphasis on absolute sovereignty for all nations will prolong injustices in some places.
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  10. #150
    Socratus O' Pericles Socratus O' Pericles is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karloff View Post
    It is interesting how much the progressive cause has embraced particular nationalisms and aspirations for homogenous demographics and then promote multiculturalism in others.

    We need to accept the rights of nations formed before a certain cut off point in history as a matter of sovereignty for them but apply different criteria to modern situations - modern situations like West Papua for example which was invaded and annexed in modern times with a phony referendum - those people need and have the utmost right to self determination.

    There are Western separatist movements which tend to be all about money or political ambition and there are Western movements like up the North were there was never proper governance ever. If you want to rule a territory first you cannot abuse the people there based on ethnic, religious issues if you do they have the right to secede.

    Some issues should be a matter of sovereign rights and some are about justice, it depends on the situation. A one size fits all solution will not work for obvious reasons, a might makes right heavy emphasis on absolute sovereignty for all nations will prolong injustices in some places.
    What do you think should happen to Russian enclaves all along its borders with a range of countries?
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