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  1. #10761
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by petaljam View Post
    Only if you can prove why it should have any rights over her body at all. Equal rights would have some logic, although indefensible in practice. "A bit of rights" (i.e. when it suits you) has none. It just looks like a handy way of paying lip service to the "right to life of the unborn" while not doing anything of the sort, except very occasionally to some particularly vulnerable woman to save face.
    Well I think the pro-life argument is very clear here - the unborn is human and has a right to life, unless the mother's life is threatened.
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  2. #10762
    Lumpy Talbot Lumpy Talbot is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    Well I think the pro-life argument is very clear here - the unborn is human and has a right to life, unless the mother's life is threatened.
    Well that is an advance on the attitude twenty years or so ago which was more of 'never mind the bitch- save the babbeh'. Progress of sorts.
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  3. #10763
    Lumpy Talbot Lumpy Talbot is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    You know I think the "equal right to life" in the Irish Constitution is a nonsense, which goes beyond abortion. And I agree that no one really thinks the foetus has an equal right to life with the mother - all the pro-lifers really think that the mother has a greater right to life.

    I'm not sure where that gets us though on the matter of abortion as a matter of choice. I suspect the pro-life side would be quite happy with a new amendment to replace the 8th which got rid of the "equal right to life", but replaced it with "The Oireachtas shall not legislate for abortion except...." in very narrow circumstances.
    Problem there is very few people in a situation where they want to terminate for whatever reason are ever going to be concerned about what the Oireachtas thinks on the matter.

    It is a false debate. Abortion on demand already exist. It is just that the Irish state, not at all unusually, doesn't know what to do about it. So it carries on debating a matter that in 99% cases isn't even taking any notice of it.
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  4. #10764
    The Eagle of the Ninth The Eagle of the Ninth is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumpy Talbot View Post
    Problem there is very few people in a situation where they want to terminate for whatever reason are ever going to be concerned about what the Oireachtas thinks on the matter.

    It is a false debate. Abortion on demand already exist. It is just that the Irish state, not at all unusually, doesn't know what to do about it. So it carries on debating a matter that in 99% cases isn't even taking any notice of it.
    All discussion around abortion on Pie (and other Big Pies in Ireland) remind me of a famous Nichols and May sketch from the early 60s.

    He: Its a moral issue, goddammit -
    She: Oh yes, a moral issue -
    He: A goddam moral issue!
    She: And I do so prefer a moral issue to a real issue...

    Calc must be steaming he was finally escorted out the door from this thread
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  5. #10765
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumpy Talbot View Post
    Problem there is very few people in a situation where they want to terminate for whatever reason are ever going to be concerned about what the Oireachtas thinks on the matter.

    It is a false debate. Abortion on demand already exist. It is just that the Irish state, not at all unusually, doesn't know what to do about it. So it carries on debating a matter that in 99% cases isn't even taking any notice of it.
    That's grand so, we have abortion on demand already, no need for any further action?
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  6. #10766
    Ellen Ripley Ellen Ripley is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    Just to be clear, I haven't said that we absolutely are morally required to attribute moral value to a being that doesn't yet have consciousness and sentience, but his argument - that rationality and consistency require us to dismiss the potentiality, the "becoming" aspect is patently absurd.
    I got the distinction.

    I'm aware that you were forensically dissecting the substance of his posts-- as a disinterested observer-- not becoming a pro-lifer.
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  7. #10767
    Lumpy Talbot Lumpy Talbot is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    That's grand so, we have abortion on demand already, no need for any further action?
    Unfortunately the law has to be clarified around those who may not be mobile enough to make it to the ferryport or airport. That's pretty much the only relevance left.
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  8. #10768
    Lumpy Talbot Lumpy Talbot is offline

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    This assumed 'potential' thing is on a philosophical level fairly irritating as well. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to assume that any foetus is full of potential. It could just as easily grow up to be a pramfaced eejit as it could be to be a brain surgeon.

    In fact on balance looking back over the decades as the global population has risen there appears to be fewer geniuses around and a lot more oxygen thieves.

    So this whole 'potential' thing is mathematically unlikely for a start.
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  9. #10769
    Lumpy Talbot Lumpy Talbot is offline

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    maybe the answer is to sterilise everyone with an IQ lower than the industrial average. That way we could deal with the whole abortion thing and overpopulation as well.

    There's much more 'potential' in that hypothesis than there is in the notion that every pramface capable of being knocked up is about to present the state with a little Einstein.
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  10. #10770
    StarryPlough01 StarryPlough01 is offline

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    Eagle (I know your sweet nature, and how troubled you must be about a fellow poster's half state. We are all feeling the same ... @ politics.ie ... one of our own ... in solidarity)

    My Analysis

    I've neglected my duty as Calc's healer (medium), especially on the abortion issue (SUBSTANTIVE ISSUE OF THIS THREAD). Calc's been talking in tongues, and what he has expressed is open to all sorts of crazy interpretations.

    Calc, poor lad, thinks he is a prophet and believes the handwriting appeared on the wall … … magically.*

    *He thinks he is a reincarnation of Prophet Daniel who predicted the diaspora.

    Did you see what HIMSELF (Calc) wrote on the wall? -


    "Mene mene tekel upharsin"


    Eagle, because Calc has not accepted that he is dead, I'm handling him with kid gloves. He's in a hell of his own making right now, and he is having a total break…

    Calc believes there is an anti-Christ running around causing trouble over abortion. He believes that anti-Christ is me (his compassionate healer, who only wants to help him to walk into the Light !!!).

    The timespan Calc / Daniel gave is:



    "Mene mene tekel upharsin"
    Time, times, and half a time (equals 3 and a half years), but I have rationally told Calc that this is subject to interpretation.



    I further said to Calc (Daniel) that Ireland's 8th Amendment (Article 40.3.3) will have been repealed long before (if it's 3 and a half years). Calc can only reiterate that anti-Christ (Me: Starry) will want to appeal any subsequent legal time span 12 / 14 / 16 weeks to allow pregnant women and girls to plan and figure out. It doesn't matter what honest reply anyone gives him, Calc (Daniel) reverts back to his stock phrase: "Answer my question."

    As I explained above, I attempted to rationally dissect what Calc is talking about in this great tribulation he foresees. But despite my rational explanations, he refutes that the writing on the wall might not mean what HIMSELF is gibbering about. Alas, broken record, Calc can only tediously shout at me: "Answer my question."

    My analytical conclusion is: Calc's half state remains unchanged. His spirit might be destined to wander the earthly plane in perpetuity.

    Does this add anything to our Abortion debate? I think it has more relevance than "A" poster saying there is an analogy that simply is not there. Try and tell "A" poster that there has to be a similarity or parallel !!!! What do we keep hearing back? You guessed it right - "A's" Answer is: A broken record.
    Last edited by StarryPlough01; 18th February 2017 at 03:45 AM.
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