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  1. #10751
    A Voice A Voice is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryPlough01 View Post
    There is no analogy.

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    Yeah, there is. Very clearly.
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  2. #10752
    petaljam petaljam is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    Just to be clear, I haven't said that we absolutely are morally required to attribute moral value to a being that doesn't yet have consciousness and sentience, but his argument - that rationality and consistency require us to dismiss the potentiality, the "becoming" aspect is patently absurd.
    Even if you were correct in that, the point remains that his argument certainly holds true with respect to removing any human rights from the pregnant woman based on mere potentiality.

    Whether it breaks down when applied as an absolute is a separate issue, and not one I'm interested in getting into here, as it's irrelevant to my opinion on the subject of this thread, namely abortion.

    And I suspect that your interpretation of things is fairly representative of what has led to the current legal situation (mess, really) in Ireland, i.e. despite the hypothetical equality of status between woman and foetus, the reality that has evolved is that in practice whenever there's a legal conflict, the courts always end up granting even relatively minor rights to the woman. Minor as compared to a right to life, that is. The right to travel being one such, but also the right to be buried without serving as an incubator, or the right not to be physically restrained in order to exercise the foetus' "right to life".

    If anyone really believed the foetus had rights that could be exercised over the woman, none of these would matter. It's all a big pretence, really, and the official line has only held because the UK has provided an outlet for pressure that prevented any public outcry from building up.
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  3. #10753
    culmore culmore is offline

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    wemon say its their body so they are entitled to have full control over it, but they share it with a man and make life and then want to kill that life without the man having any say in it, thats murder to me and thats a serious crime no matter what the circumstances
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  4. #10754
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by petaljam View Post
    Even if you were correct in that, the point remains that his argument certainly holds true with respect to removing any human rights from the pregnant woman based on mere potentiality.

    Whether it breaks down when applied as an absolute is a separate issue, and not one I'm interested in getting into here, as it's irrelevant to my opinion on the subject of this thread, namely abortion.
    If you're not interested in it, that's fine, but with respect you don't get to control what people discuss on the thread! And the discussion I was having with this poster was very much on the thread topic. He came on here claiming to have an irrefutable argument to show abortion is ethnically permissible on the grounds of the moral status of the foetus (leaving aside the question of the rights of the mother), in fact he lectured people at length on it, so I'm perfectly entitled to engage with him on it.
    Last edited by talkingshop; 17th February 2017 at 04:28 PM.
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  5. #10755
    petaljam petaljam is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    If you're not interested in it, that's fine, but with respect you don't get to control what people discuss on the thread! And the discussion I was having with this poster was very much on the thread topic. He came on here claiming to have an irrefutable argument to show abortion is ethnically permissible on the grounds of the moral status of the foetus (leaving aside the question of the rights of the mother), in fact he lectured people at length on it, so I'm perfectly entitled to engage with him on it.
    Gosh I wasn't telling you not to discuss it with anyone else, I've no idea why you would even imagine that.
    Just saying I wasn't saying whether you or he were right, and wasn't interested in that aspect.
    In case your reply to me picked up on that, instead of what I was actually saying.

    Which you've managed to do anyway. Thus proving my suspicions correct, of course.

    So. Any chance you might reply to my point, rather than attempt to discuss his with me?
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  6. #10756
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by petaljam View Post
    Gosh I wasn't telling you not to discuss it with anyone else, I've no idea why you would even imagine that.
    Just saying I wasn't saying whether you or he were right, and wasn't interested in that aspect.
    In case your reply to me picked up on that, instead of what I was actually saying.

    Which you've managed to do anyway. Thus proving my suspicions correct, of course.

    So. Any chance you might reply to my point, rather than attempt to discuss his with me?
    You know I think the "equal right to life" in the Irish Constitution is a nonsense, which goes beyond abortion. And I agree that no one really thinks the foetus has an equal right to life with the mother - all the pro-lifers really think that the mother has a greater right to life.

    I'm not sure where that gets us though on the matter of abortion as a matter of choice. I suspect the pro-life side would be quite happy with a new amendment to replace the 8th which got rid of the "equal right to life", but replaced it with "The Oireachtas shall not legislate for abortion except...." in very narrow circumstances.
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  7. #10757
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    You know I think the "equal right to life" in the Irish Constitution is a nonsense, which goes beyond abortion. And I agree that no one really thinks the foetus has an equal right to life with the mother - all the pro-lifers really think that the mother has a greater right to life.

    I'm not sure where that gets us though on the matter of abortion as a matter of choice. I suspect the pro-life side would be quite happy with a new amendment to replace the 8th which got rid of the "equal right to life", but replaced it with "The Oireachtas shall not legislate for abortion except...." in very narrow circumstances.
    The "equal right to life" is a bit of a red herring. The question to be answered, particularly by the pro-choice side, concerns how we are to regard the right to life of the unborn in comparison with lesser rights of the mother.
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  8. #10758
    petaljam petaljam is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    The "equal right to life" is a bit of a red herring. The question to be answered, particularly by the pro-choice side, concerns how we are to regard the right to life of the unborn in comparison with lesser rights of the mother.
    Only if you can prove why it should have any rights over her body at all. Equal rights would have some logic, although indefensible in practice. "A bit of rights" (i.e. when it suits you) has none. It just looks like a handy way of paying lip service to the "right to life of the unborn" while not doing anything of the sort, except very occasionally to some particularly vulnerable woman to save face.
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  9. #10759
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by petaljam View Post
    Only if you can prove why it should have any rights over her body at all. Equal rights would have some logic, although indefensible in practice. "A bit of rights" (i.e. when it suits you) has none. It just looks like a handy way of paying lip service to the "right to life of the unborn" while not doing anything of the sort, except very occasionally to some particularly vulnerable woman to save face.
    Well I think the pro-life argument is very clear here - the unborn is human and has a right to life, unless the mother's life is threatened.
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  10. #10760
    Lumpy Talbot Lumpy Talbot is online now

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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    Well I think the pro-life argument is very clear here - the unborn is human and has a right to life, unless the mother's life is threatened.
    Well that is an advance on the attitude twenty years or so ago which was more of 'never mind the bitch- save the babbeh'. Progress of sorts.
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