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  1. #10741
    StarryPlough01 StarryPlough01 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellen Ripley View Post
    Your entire argument in support of abortion rests on: if a foetus is really only the potential for a human being, then it's okay to obliterate it because it doesn’t have feeling yet, and it hasn’t made any world-changing discoveries yet, or broken any world records yet.
    If your "unassailable" logic stands then it is okay to end anything and anyone that doesn’t evoke feeling in you right now, or possess some quality that you deem acceptable 'achievement'.

    That's entirely ludicrous, and AV and TS have comprehensively proven this to you, concisely and 'coherently', several times.

    So, how about a newborn, which isn't really all that useful? Or undergraduate students? They have emotion and some of them might be pretty smart, maybe even capable of a Nobel Prize or something someday, but right now it’s just potential. Should I be paying for my 10-year-old's piano lessons at all? His playing sucks right now, but maybe....nah, just potential.

    And after we do whatever great things we do with our short lives, we really aren’t very valuable because we've already done what we could do, so...

    See? The problem with dismissing the ‘potential’ argument is that all we are and ever have been is potential. Potential for greatness, success, love, hate, victory, strength, honour, courage; and yet you dismiss the greatest potential of all-- the possibility of all these things, the potential for life- as unimportant.

    When you dismiss 'mere' potential you dismiss yourself, and what it means to be human.
    There might be contending reasons why you should have an abortion. An individual should be able to evaluate the pros and cons to make a decision.
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  2. #10742
    A Voice A Voice is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryPlough01 View Post
    I don't have to look up the word analogy.

    They were not analogies. FROGS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ABORTION.

    Choosing to save one twin over another is not an analogy either.
    The issue concerned timelines for alcohol purchase and abortion.
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  3. #10743
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellen Ripley View Post
    Your entire argument in support of abortion rests on: if a foetus is really only the potential for a human being, then it's okay to obliterate it because it doesn’t have feeling yet, and it hasn’t made any world-changing discoveries yet, or broken any world records yet.
    If your "unassailable" logic stands then it is okay to end anything and anyone that doesn’t evoke feeling in you right now, or possess some quality that you deem acceptable 'achievement'.

    That's entirely ludicrous, and AV and TS have comprehensively proven this to you, concisely and 'coherently', several times.

    So, how about a newborn, which isn't really all that useful? Or undergraduate students? They have emotion and some of them might be pretty smart, maybe even capable of a Nobel Prize or something someday, but right now it’s just potential. Should I be paying for my 10-year-old's piano lessons at all? His playing sucks right now, but maybe....nah, just potential.

    And after we do whatever great things we do with our short lives, we really aren’t very valuable because we've already done what we could do, so...

    See? The problem with dismissing the ‘potential’ argument is that all we are and ever have been is potential. Potential for greatness, success, love, hate, victory, strength, honour, courage; and yet you dismiss the greatest potential of all-- the possibility of all these things, the potential for life- as unimportant.

    When you dismiss 'mere' potential you dismiss yourself, and what it means to be human.
    Just to be clear, I haven't said that we absolutely are morally required to attribute moral value to a being that doesn't yet have consciousness and sentience, but his argument - that rationality and consistency require us to dismiss the potentiality, the "becoming" aspect is patently absurd.
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  4. #10744
    StarryPlough01 StarryPlough01 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Voice View Post
    The issue concerned timelines for alcohol purchase and abortion.
    They have a line, that's the RULE OF THE LAW.
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  5. #10745
    StarryPlough01 StarryPlough01 is offline
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    A rule is a line, a line is a rule. You can try and argue against that fact, but it won't go away.
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  6. #10746
    A Voice A Voice is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryPlough01 View Post
    They have a line, that's the RULE OF THE LAW.
    You don't seem to be disagreeing on the analogous relationship between the law in one area and nozzo's suggestion for another.
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  7. #10747
    StarryPlough01 StarryPlough01 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Voice View Post
    You don't seem to be disagreeing on the analogous relationship between the law in one area and nozzo's suggestion for another.
    You're not making sense to me.
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  8. #10748
    StarryPlough01 StarryPlough01 is offline
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    There is no analogy.

    ___
    .
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  9. #10749
    A Voice A Voice is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryPlough01 View Post
    There is no analogy.

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    Yeah, there is. Very clearly.
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  10. #10750
    petaljam petaljam is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    Just to be clear, I haven't said that we absolutely are morally required to attribute moral value to a being that doesn't yet have consciousness and sentience, but his argument - that rationality and consistency require us to dismiss the potentiality, the "becoming" aspect is patently absurd.
    Even if you were correct in that, the point remains that his argument certainly holds true with respect to removing any human rights from the pregnant woman based on mere potentiality.

    Whether it breaks down when applied as an absolute is a separate issue, and not one I'm interested in getting into here, as it's irrelevant to my opinion on the subject of this thread, namely abortion.

    And I suspect that your interpretation of things is fairly representative of what has led to the current legal situation (mess, really) in Ireland, i.e. despite the hypothetical equality of status between woman and foetus, the reality that has evolved is that in practice whenever there's a legal conflict, the courts always end up granting even relatively minor rights to the woman. Minor as compared to a right to life, that is. The right to travel being one such, but also the right to be buried without serving as an incubator, or the right not to be physically restrained in order to exercise the foetus' "right to life".

    If anyone really believed the foetus had rights that could be exercised over the woman, none of these would matter. It's all a big pretence, really, and the official line has only held because the UK has provided an outlet for pressure that prevented any public outcry from building up.
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