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  1. #26981
    Toland Toland is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpast View Post
    Smiling children in 1950s Ireland?


    I was a child in 50s Ireland - and have very happy memories

    This is the Ireland Boll remembered. The other is the place the liars, fantasists and the millions of certifiable lunatics see in their hallucinations. Where dark hooded figures prowl at nightfall and sadistic nuns fling infants into cesspits.

    Stay off the Crack Cocaine son - its doing you no good....
    You're appealing to Böll to defend your nostalgia?

    Seriously?

    Your chuzpah leaves me fanning myself with my hat. And it's not even a hot day.
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  2. #26982
    Catalpast Catalpast is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toland View Post
    You're appealing to Böll to defend your nostalgia?

    Seriously?

    Your chuzpah leaves me fanning myself with my hat. And it's not even a hot day.
    Then put your cloths back on....
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  3. #26983
    Toland Toland is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpast View Post
    Then put your cloths back on....
    clothes


    You're welcome
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  4. #26984
    HereWeGoAgain HereWeGoAgain is offline

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    Today in Dail Eireann


    Illegal Adoptions


    23. Deputy Clare Daly:
    asked the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs her plans to widen the scope of the investigation into illegal birth registrations beyond the initial sampling exercise to include all of those homes and private agencies involved in organising adoptions in the State; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [25106/18]


    Deputy Clare Daly

    My question is on widening the scope of the investigation into illegal birth registrations beyond the initial sampling exercise to include more broadly the homes and private agencies that were involved. I note that the Minister told Deputy Mitchell that she was open to this, but the key point is that this is an ageing community and there must be urgency in carrying out the exercise. It must be extended to include all, not just a sample.

    Response: Deputy Katherine Zappone


    As I indicated earlier, I have asked an independent reviewer to oversee a further analysis of relevant records held by Tusla and the Adoption Authority in the first instance. The purpose of the exercise is to see if clear evidence of illegal registrations is evident in other records. The first meeting to commence this process took place yesterday and I expect the analysis to be completed four months from when it is initiated. In that regard, I understand that methodological matters are currently being finalised. Given the volume of records involved, we must first judge the likely incidence of cases that can actually be identified through this analysis. I will then be in a position to judge the next steps. Records which are not in the custody of either Tusla or the Adoption Authority cannot be included in the analysis at this stage as the State does not have possession of them. The Adoption (Information and Tracing) Bill 2016 is the statutory mechanism necessary to bring these records, estimated at about 50,000, into the custody of the Adoption Authority. I am meeting colleagues from both Houses this afternoon to explore how we can progress this legislation as quickly as possible.

    The extent to which children were simply placed with couples and their births registered as if they had been born to them is but one of the major issues that we need to examine. The work of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes will be important in dealing with a range of other adoption-related matters. The commission is examining adoption practices in the cases of mothers and children who were resident in the institutions within its terms of reference. The commission is also required to examine the interaction of mother and baby homes with other institutions, organisations and individuals who had involvement with children from these institutions.

    For example, it is examining the practices and policies within adoption societies involved in the placement of children from these institutions. This will provide important insight into any irregularities or illegalities. I want to get to the truth. The further analysis, which has commenced, together with the ongoing work of the commission, will be important for our initial steps. I reiterate that I am open to furthering those steps.



    Deputy Clare Daly

    The difficulty is that, sadly, there is nothing new in the recent revelations. The knowledge of the incidence of the criminal, illegal registration of births has been known by society for a long time. One of the points that must emerge from an extension beyond a scoping exercise is the huge numbers of people involved. This is not speculation; the evidence is known.

    Conall Ó Fátharta wrote in yesterday's edition of the Irish Examiner about the 748 cases on top of the 126 cases and the knowledge that existed in adoption agencies. The AAI gave information to the health committee in 2014 that said there were thousands of illegal adoptions at that stage. It cannot be a lottery for the people at the centre of this whereby one of their samples might get picked and they get an answer. There may be people who do not even know that they require an answer. We need to be extensive in the research because much larger numbers of people are affected by this. These cases have gone long beyond the records of St. Patrick's Guild and the other institutions. It has been known for some time that we needed to secure those records. The key issues are to stress to the Minister the urgency of the situation and the need to extend the scope.



    Response: Deputy Katherine Zappone


    I acknowledge the Deputy as a champion of this issue, and all the work she has done with advocates, which has brought us to this point. I met a number of the advocates recently and one of the key messages coming from them is the sense of urgency that is required.

    When considering where we go from here, particularly with regard to the records we have as well as those we do not, the right way to begin is a targeted approach with the 100,000 records I mentioned. One of the reasons for this, apart from the fact that trawling through 100,000 records will be a significant and labour intensive job, is that from a research perspective we should take this one step at a time to see if the methodology being developed will work to help us uncover evidence of the illegal registrations. Perhaps it might not do this and as time passes there will not be the huge numbers the Deputy has indicated. I do not necessarily disagree with the Deputy but there may be other ways to try to get at the truth apart from the methodology currently being developed.



    Deputy Clare Daly

    We will discuss the scoping exercise this afternoon and I am sure every Member's input will stress the urgency. In the interim, however, there are older and vulnerable people who, in some instances, do not have months or years to wait for that process. In this context the expertise of a person such as Sharon Lawless, who produced "Adoption Stories" for TV3, is important. People like her, with few resources but with an open heart and a will to find answers through DNA testing and so on, have been able to give people answers when they were told there was no information to be had in other quarters. We need to tap into resources such as DNA. Mandatory counselling should be provided to support people in this process and a method to reach out to affected people and those who will be affected must be put in place early on in the process. We should not wait for that. It requires not just urgency; it requires a beefing up of resources in those areas as well as in record searching and in extending the scope. It is incumbent on all of us to get behind this to make sure the resources are delivered for that.


    Deputy Katherine Zappone


    I would be open to all those suggestions and I thank the Deputy for them. We need to consider all of those aspects in the context of the research and the identification of the evidence, as she said. I agree that we may need to go about these in other ways, especially from the stakeholders' perspective. It may be the case that little information emerges following the initial four months of using the methodology, and we may need to consider a different approach to reviewing the files. If that is the case, engagement with stakeholders could be critical. At the meeting I held with stakeholders - and the Deputy will be aware of this because she has also spoken with them - a number of related issues and concerns were raised such as falsified addresses and dates of birth by birth mothers, the importance of baptismal records, the use of obviously false addresses on records and the potential to identify trends. To follow up on information such as this and to seek information from these people and organisations, who are familiar with the system and are experts in the field, may be a more appropriate way to go about this research. Subsequent to my announcement, I was contacted by a number of people who suspect they were illegally registered. We must also take on board those contacts and those questions as part of our research moving forward.



    Link:
    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates...18-06-13/4/#s9
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  5. #26985
    HereWeGoAgain HereWeGoAgain is offline

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    This afternoon, Dail Eireann:




    Question:
    24. Deputy Mick Barry :

    asked the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs the reason no audit or action was taken in view of the report submitted by the Adoption Authority of Irela
    nd on illegal registrations in 2011 and which again reported the issue in 2013. [25613/18]


    Deputy Katherine Zappone


    I am conscious of claims that the State knew for many years about illegal registrations, and that successive Governments should have done more to address the issue. What has been lost in the debate is the fact that, while there seems to have been an awareness of this illegal practice, we had no clear proof of what happened, other than in a few individual cases where documentary evidence was found.


    It is vital to point out that illegal registrations were deliberately concealed and that either no records were kept or else they appear to have been deliberately falsified. In these circumstances, it was difficult to find the truth.


    The St. Patrick's Guild records were the first source of a considerable number of cases where clear written evidence was identified. I announced this on 29 May as soon as I was satisfied about the strength of the evidence in these cases.

    While the AAI has previously reported concerns in relation to a number of cases it was aware of, the threshold of evidence of an incorrect registration, which is required if persons are to be notified, had not yet been reached.


    While engaging with Tusla and the AAI on the evidence emerging from the St. Patrick's Guild files of illegal registrations, I requested that the authority revisit the cases about which it had concerns, and to conduct a validation exercise on them to establish if a high level of certainty could be reached that an incorrect registration had taken place. I await the outcome of this validation exercise from the authority. If further confirmed cases emerge, they will be added to the same process as the 126 confirmed St. Patrick's Guild cases.

    In addition, the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters is examining adoption practices in the cases of mothers and children who were resident in the specified institutions within its terms of reference.


    Deputy Mick Barry


    I thank the Minister for her reply but I challenge her assertion that prior to this there had been "no clear proof" of this criminal action other than in a handful of cases. In 2013, the AAI said that there may be thousands of cases, which is not clear proof, but it also said that there were hundreds of illegal birth registrations. The authority knew this from its own audit and work on the issue. This was brought to the attention of departmental officials. Given there was clear proof on more than a handful of cases from an authority no less than the AAI, which is the key body, why was more not done at that point?


    Deputy Katherine Zappone

    When preparing a reply for the Deputy's important question, the information from the AAI was that, between 2010 and now, it has been contacted by 141 people looking for information that the authority did not have.

    Link: https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates...-06-13/10/#s11
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  6. #26986
    HereWeGoAgain HereWeGoAgain is offline

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    Houses of the Oireachtas: Adoption (Information and Tracing) Bill 2016
    (Bill 100 of 2016)

    Bill entitled an Act to provide for the acquisition and maintenance by the Adoption Authority of Ireland of records relating to the adoption, incorrect registration or placement in informal care arrangements of children; to provide for the establishment and maintenance of a register to be known as the Register of Adoption Contact Enquiries; to provide for the making available by the Child and Family Agency of a service for the tracing of certain persons, their birth relatives and other persons, and of a service for the provision of information to and facilitation of contact between such persons; to amend the Adoption Act 2010; to amend the Child and Family Agency Act 2013; and to provide for related matters

    Last updated: 17 May 2017

    Sponsored by: Minister for Children and Youth Affairs

    Source: Government

    Originating House: Seanad Éireann

    This Bill is currently before Seanad Éireann, Second Stage

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2016/100/


    Text of Bill:
    https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireac...ed/b10016s.pdf
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  7. #26987
    An Chuileog An Chuileog is offline
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    Tuam Mother and Baby Home story is a wet dream.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Crotta Cliach View Post
    Why don't you find something not written by a Catholic. Maybe an atheist or a Protestant or Hindu or Buddhist?
    Just follow me.
    I'm not a Catholic and I have been writing for years that the whole story is nothing short of absolute bollicks.

    There is not one shred of evidence to back up any claims that babies were murdered, neglected, mistreated or dumped in septic tanks. Catherine Corless is not a historian, she is a retired secretary, she has no training in history other than basic school history and is therefore prone to making things up to fill her knowledge gaps.

    The story has taken flight because people want ot believe it, not because it is true and it sells newspapers in a world of declining newspaper sales.

    There are plenty of articles written by non Catholics which make the same points but the media has grown pairs of very deaf ears for the aforesaid reasons.
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  8. #26988
    Catalpast Catalpast is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereWeGoAgain View Post
    Houses of the Oireachtas: Adoption (Information and Tracing) Bill 2016
    (Bill 100 of 2016)

    Bill entitled an Act to provide for the acquisition and maintenance by the Adoption Authority of Ireland of records relating to the adoption, incorrect registration or placement in informal care arrangements of children; to provide for the establishment and maintenance of a register to be known as the Register of Adoption Contact Enquiries; to provide for the making available by the Child and Family Agency of a service for the tracing of certain persons, their birth relatives and other persons, and of a service for the provision of information to and facilitation of contact between such persons; to amend the Adoption Act 2010; to amend the Child and Family Agency Act 2013; and to provide for related matters

    Last updated: 17 May 2017

    Sponsored by: Minister for Children and Youth Affairs

    Source: Government

    Originating House: Seanad Éireann

    This Bill is currently before Seanad Éireann, Second Stage

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2016/100/


    Text of Bill:
    https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireac...ed/b10016s.pdf
    Surely this deserves a separate thread of its own?

    IMO though it is a Legal minefield

    - the State would want to be extra careful how it handles this one...
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  9. #26989
    seanan cunny seanan cunny is offline

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    One consolation and joy for me-all those who took part in ANY way in those atrocities will never see the TRUE God.
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  10. #26990
    Catalpast Catalpast is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanan cunny View Post
    One consolation and joy for me-all those who took part in ANY way in those atrocities will never see the TRUE God.
    What Atrocities?
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