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  1. #21
    Cruimh Cruimh is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Mr Grouser View Post
    That's one of the reasons why Gardai and the archaeologists are needed.

    Are the bodies from the Famine or the Workhouse - or are they the Children's Home, which places them within living memory and concerning people still alive?

    But whatever, if there are bodies then they must be exhumed and given a decent reburial.

    If the forensic pathologists say that they're children who died 'within living memory' then the State will have to take reasonable efforts to identify them and to contact relatives before the re-burial - DNA testing, as happens with recently exhumed bodies of soldiers killed in VietNam or the two World Wars.
    Can you see the State daring to open that can of worms by demanding full access to any and all records held by the Church? After all, they gave the Church a Bye in respect of the Dublin bodies.
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  2. #22
    Rausmaus Von Schnellkat Rausmaus Von Schnellkat is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Mr Grouser View Post
    Yes, absolutely.

    Only in Ireland would any report of such practices, purportedly well within living memory, not attract the urgent attention of law enforcement agencies.

    The Garda must investigate - whatever the cause of the deaths there are, it is said, up to eight hundred bodies packed in there; improperly interred, denied a decent funeral.

    NUI Galway has an archaeology department, and they are only down the road. They could assist the Gardai concerned, and conduct a preliminary dig to see if there is any truth in the allegations.

    If there is then then the bodies will have to be carefully exhumed - by forensic archaeologists, perhaps assisted by members of the Defence Forces whose UN service has involved the investigation of Mass Graves.
    That is the interesting bit. If a skeleton was found in forest land that was perhaps 50-70 years old it would be exhumed and examined for foul play and checked against Garda records of missing persons in the area.

    800 children's skeletons uncovered near a Bons Secours institution and the Gardai are allegedly investigating whether they were certificated deaths.

    See the slight amendment in emphasis?

    Investigation sets off in amenable direction immediately.
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  3. #23
    Andrew49 Andrew49 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Mr Grouser View Post


    The local cemeteries have no records of these eight hundred or so children being buried' but the great majority of these deaths would have been of babies or toddlers, but then a common practice of the time was to place such corpses in the coffins of dead adults.
    When it came to burying women/children/babies from the Institutions I think it was a 'do-as-you-like-with-the-bodies' system.
    "Undertakers exhuming the bodies of 133 women at a notorious Sisters of Our Lady of Charity convent found 22 other remains. And almost 60 of the deaths at one of the infamous Magdalene Laundries in Dublin were never registered. The shocking revelations did prompt calls for a Garda probe into who these women were, and how they died."
    " It may never be known who these women were. A grey headstone marked “St Mary’s High Park, In Loving Memory Of” features 175 names and dates of death, the first in 1858, the last December 1994. But the names on the headstone bear little resemblance to the list supplied to the Department of the Environment by the nuns to secure the exhumation licence. Only 27 of the names and dates correctly match up."
    Source

    And 35 children died one night in an Institution after the nuns locked them into a dormitory while a fire was raging below. The remains of the dead children were placed in 8 coffins and buried. I supposed that saved a few bob for the nuns.
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  4. #24
    Cruimh Cruimh is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rausmaus Von Schnellkat View Post
    That is the interesting bit. If a skeleton was found in forest land that was perhaps 50-70 years old it would be exhumed and examined for foul play and checked against Garda records of missing persons in the area.

    800 children's skeletons uncovered near a Bons Secours institution and the Gardai are allegedly investigating whether they were certificated deaths.

    See the slight amendment in emphasis?

    Investigation sets off in amenable direction immediately.
    But are the Gardai investigating if they were certificated deaths?

    As many as 796 infants and children are believed to have been buried there, with causes of death ranging from measles, tuberculosis, gastroenteritis and pneumonia to malnutrition and convulsions.
    Local historian and genealogist Catherine Corless, who uncovered the 796 death records when she was researching the home, told "The Journal" that plans are underway to ensure that the grave will not remain unmarked for much longer.
    Memorial bid to mark mass grave of 800 babies in Galway - IrishCentral.com

    Sounds as if the deaths were recorded, with cause of death - though it would be interesting to see if the certifications were done by a doctor.
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  5. #25
    ellie08 ellie08 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rausmaus Von Schnellkat View Post
    That is the interesting bit. If a skeleton was found in forest land that was perhaps 50-70 years old it would be exhumed and examined for foul play and checked against Garda records of missing persons in the area.

    800 children's skeletons uncovered near a Bons Secours institution and the Gardai are allegedly investigating whether they were certificated deaths.

    See the slight amendment in emphasis?

    Investigation sets off in amenable direction immediately.

    What a horrible society we had. Such degredation of human life by those that were supposed to cherish 'Gods creations'.
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  6. #26
    Cato Cato is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    Can you see the State daring to open that can of worms by demanding full access to any and all records held by the Church? After all, they gave the Church a Bye in respect of the Dublin bodies.
    I'm told that all records from the 'Home' in Tuam were transferred by the Bon Secours Order to the local Health Board in the late 60s following the closure of the place.
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  7. #27
    Cato Cato is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    But are the Gardai investigating if they were certificated deaths?

    Memorial bid to mark mass grave of 800 babies in Galway - IrishCentral.com

    Sounds as if the deaths were recorded, with cause of death - though it would be interesting to see if the certifications were done by a doctor.
    They were recorded - that's how the researcher, Corless, established the numbers likely to be in the mass grave, i.e. from looking at the death certs and cross referencing them with the cemetery records from Galway and Mayo.

    It's the details concerning the cause of death that among the most alarming features of this thing.
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  8. #28
    Cruimh Cruimh is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    I'm told that all records from the 'Home' in Tuam were transferred by the Bon Secours Order to the local Health Board in the late 60s following the closure of the place.
    That I would doubt. I dare say some records were transferred.
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  9. #29
    Cruimh Cruimh is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    They were recorded - that's how the researcher, Corless, established the numbers likely to be in the mass grave, i.e. from looking at the death certs and cross referencing them with the cemetery records from Galway and Mayo.

    It's the details concerning the cause of death that among the most alarming features of this thing.
    But were the certificates all issued by doctors?

    And if there are certificates for circa 800, the next question is how many bodies would actually be found - there was a significant difference in numbers between bodies found and bodies that the Sister of our Lady of Charity could account for at the Site in Drumcondra.

    1993: RIDDLE OF THE MAGDALENE LAUNDRY DEAD: Who are they? | The Ragged Wagon

    Undertakers exhuming the bodies of 133 women at a notorious Sisters of Our Lady of Charity convent found 22 other remains. And almost 60 of the deaths at one of the infamous Magdalene Laundries in Dublin were never registered. The shocking revelations did prompt calls for a Garda probe into who these women were, and how they died.
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  10. #30
    Cato Cato is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    But were the certificates all issued by doctors?

    And if there are certificates for circa 800, the next question is how many bodies would actually be found - there was a significant difference in numbers between bodies found and bodies that the Sister of our Lady of Charity could account for at the Site in Drumcondra.

    1993: RIDDLE OF THE MAGDALENE LAUNDRY DEAD: Who are they? | The Ragged Wagon
    There is also the added difficulty that back in the 70s many of the bodies were uncovered - I met one man that can remember children in the area running around with skulls on sticks.

    Your question on all of the certs being signed by doctors is a good one.
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