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  1. #22911
    Calculusmadeeasy Calculusmadeeasy is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    Of course, he has zero evidence that babies were "abused, allowed die, and sold for profit" in Tuam, but leaving that fact-free allegation aside, he clearly has a big issue with an underground burial chamber. I mean according to him it was deliberately constructed ("no accident", which seems a big point to him), it was plastered and steps were put in, OMG! What an idiot.
    Putting steps into a secret cesspit. Very strange.
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  2. #22912
    gerhard dengler gerhard dengler is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by TirChonaill View Post
    Sigh! Let me draw your attention to this. Again!

    Saving Ireland's forgotten burial sites | Irish Examiner


    Illegitimate children were not buried in consecrated ground.

    There are hundreds, if not thousands, of such burial sites throughout Ireland.

    Ireland's lost limbo babies: A very personal journey - Independent.ie
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  3. #22913
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by TirChonaill View Post
    Sigh! Let me draw your attention to this. Again!

    Saving Ireland's forgotten burial sites | Irish Examiner



    Illegitimate children were not buried in consecrated ground.
    What exactly is consecrated ground though, do you know? It's unclear but there seems to have been a graveyard on this site - the old workhouse graveyard. Would that have been consecrated ground?
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  4. #22914
    TirChonaill TirChonaill is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calculusmadeeasy View Post
    Do you mean a "tunnel" that a person could walk through?

    Modern Cesspools/Septic tanks feature an access hatch (600mm diameter access way).
    I mean a tunnel you could walk through.


    https://www.mercatornet.com/mobile/v...espite-outrage


    In his blogpost which appears to row back from some of his original claims, journalist Philip Boucher-Hayes quotes an eyewitness called Julia Devaney who was a resident of the Tuam home and later an employee. She recalled assisting the sisters in carrying the bodies of deceased babies through a tunnel which led to a burial vault.
    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    What exactly is consecrated ground though, do you know? It's unclear but there seems to have been a graveyard on this site - the old workhouse graveyard. Would that have been consecrated ground?
    Ground which has been blessed for the express purpose of being used as a graveyard in this instance.
    It's possible to consecrate (or make sacred) ground/objects for various reasons. The prayers would be a little different, according to the reason for the consecration, afaik.
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  5. #22915
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by TirChonaill View Post
    Ground which has been blessed for the express purpose of being used as a graveyard in this instance.
    It's possible to consecrate (or make sacred) ground/objects for various reasons. The prayers would be a little different, according to the reason for the consecration, afaik.
    So possible that the graveyard on site was consecrated, and kept for the legitimate children (or mothers) who died there, e.g. kids who had been abandoned by married parents, but they wanted somewhere separate to bury the illegitimate kids, and created the underground burial place? And the 5 (or 6?) adult remains found there were also illegitimate girls? Just speculating...
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  6. #22916
    TirChonaill TirChonaill is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    So possible that the graveyard on site was consecrated, and kept for the legitimate children (or mothers) who died there, e.g. kids who had been abandoned by married parents, but they wanted somewhere separate to bury the illegitimate kids, and created the underground burial place? And the 5 (or 6?) adult remains found there were also illegitimate girls? Just speculating...
    Possibly. It would have been normal practice at the time to have separate burial grounds for the legitimate, baptised babies, vs. the illegitimate, or unbaptised babies.

    I've no idea when, or why the underground burial place was built, in fairness.

    But illegitimate children would not, under any circumstances, have been buried in the "ordinary" graveyards at the time. Neither would their Mothers, so the 5 or 6 adults could either have been illegitimate, or, more likely imo, young mothers who didn't survive childbirth, or died shortly afterwards.
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  7. #22917
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by TirChonaill View Post
    Possibly. It would have been normal practice at the time to have separate burial grounds for the legitimate, baptised babies, vs. the illegitimate, or unbaptised babies.

    I've no idea when, or why the underground burial place was built, in fairness.

    But illegitimate children would not, under any circumstances, have been buried in the "ordinary" graveyards at the time. Neither would their Mothers, so the 5 or 6 adults could either have been illegitimate, or, more likely imo, young mothers who didn't survive childbirth, or died shortly afterwards.
    Ok, Are you sure the mothers of illegitimate children couldn't have been buried in regular graveyards? That seems quite incredible - a thief, a murderer (presumably after repenting) could be buried in a regular graveyard, but never an unmarried mother?

    Btw, I'm assuming the nuns would have baptised these illegitimate babies?
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  8. #22918
    TirChonaill TirChonaill is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    Ok, Are you sure the mothers of illegitimate children couldn't have been buried in regular graveyards? That seems quite incredible - a thief, a murderer (presumably after repenting) could be buried in a regular graveyard, but never an unmarried mother?

    Btw, I'm assuming the nuns would have baptised these illegitimate babies?
    Yes, I'm sure. Murderers wouldn't have been buried in a regular graveyard either. I don't know about thieves.

    The nuns would have baptised the illegitimate babies, because those who stayed in the homes went on to make their communion, which they couldn't have done without baptism, first.

    Also, the reason I think the Mothers are the remains that were found is precisely because the children raised in the home would have received the sacraments of Communion and Confirmation - therefore, after Confirmation, in particular - they would have been regarded as full members of the Church.
    Equally, if they were considered fit to receive Communion, the Body of Christ - then certainly no earthly power could then reject them as members of the Church, and thus, entitled to Christian burial, if you see what I mean?
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  9. #22919
    Cruimh Cruimh is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by TirChonaill View Post
    The nuns would have baptised the illegitimate babies,
    That was one of the selling points, to save their souls and protect them from Protestants ....

    Hell, Baptising was a moral duty for Catholic Nurses - even if the infant at risk was from non Catholic parents - but they were advised to do it discretely, without telling the parents....
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  10. #22920
    Toland Toland is offline
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    How many unbaptised babies would there have been? One would expect stillbirths and babies who died during or very soon after childbirth not to be baptised. But I was taught during my RE that non clerics were permitted to baptise unbaptised people in extremis. It's a simple enough ceremony. The place was run by nuns. How many babies would one expect to have died unbaptised?

    I hasten to add that this is not a criticism. it's merely a speculation that the number of bodies of unbaptised children would probably have been relatively small in a convent-type atmosphere.
    Last edited by Toland; 21st March 2017 at 07:10 AM. Reason: Typo
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