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Thread: State to look at civil rights of gays, lesbians

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    Politics.ie Founder David Cochrane's Avatar
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    State to look at civil rights of gays, lesbians

    A CIVIL partnership conferring property and other rights to gay and non-married couples may well be in the cards, Justice Minister Michael McDowell said at the launch of the Dublin Gay and Lesbian Film Festival last night.

    While he stopped short of endorsing gay marriage, the minister said the Government is committed to looking at extending civil rights not only to gay couples who co-habitate, but heterosexual couples who choose to live together but not marry as well as others in similar "caring" relationships.

    Irish Independent

    Meanwhile, NewsTalk106 reports that these plans to extend the civil rights of same-sex couples are being criticised as too little, too late.

    Last night, Justice Minister Michael McDowell said the Government's committed to bringing the tax and social welfare entitlements of homosexual couples in line with those of married people.

    But Fine Gael Senator Sheila Terry is urging the Minister to say when exactly the legal limbo will end. Meanwhile, Gay and lesbian groups are welcoming the announcement.
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    Good stuff.

    I note the total lack of response from opponents of gay rights.

    Has Ireland grown up?



    Or are these people still in bed after a night of necking back the pills?

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    Opponents of Gay and Lesbian Rights need not respond to Michael's 'announcement': they know he's on their side.

    He had the gall to show up last night and tell us he knew best what we wanted; he suggested that gay people don't actually want to get married, that's why he was going to talk about providing something else.

    Talk, you note, not provide, not even that little bit of recognition he's willing to support. That bit of recognition being, of course, on a par with the relationship of, say, two sexagenarian bachelor brothers. Because you see, Michael doesn't understand two people of the same sex can actually love each other the way a heterosexual couple might. What an insult!
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    Address by Mr. Michael McDowell T.D.,
    Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform
    at the opening of the
    13th Dublin Lesbian and Gay Film Festival

    I am delighted to be here tonight to open the 13th Dublin Lesbian and Gay Film Festival. I was honoured to be invited by your committee.

    This festival is an important event in the calendar of the lesbian and gay community in Ireland and presents an opportunity to see films which people may not otherwise get a chance to see.

    You will be interested to know that your choice to invite me here has led to objections from two totally different directions. In addition to the objections that were voiced in the media, I have been written to in the strongest possible terms telling me that this was an occasion that no Minister should attend.

    For my part, I am very glad to have been invited here. And to those who object from the position of those two opposite prejudices, I simply say that while I respect the right of anyone to hold strong views, I feel that it would have sent out a very wrong message to give in to those opinions.

    Controversy is not unknown at film festivals, but it is more generally associated with the choice of films or the arbitrary decisions of juries rather than with the choice of person to open the festival. I am not averse to controversy, as is well known, but in this case, I think the arguments ought not to distract people from the excellent programme of films that are on show.

    I note that many of this year's films focus on the theme of family values and I know that the issue of legal recognition of same sex partnerships is of immediate concern to you. I have previously acknowledged, on behalf of the Government, during the debate on Senator David Norris' Civil Partnership Bill that the position of same sex couples before the law, and others in caring relationships, including extending State recognition to civil partnerships between such persons, needs to be addressed.
    There are a number of factors which will inform future decisions on this issue. Those factors include the Report of the Law Reform Commission on Rights and Duties of Cohabitants, the Report of the All Party Oireachtas Committee on the Constitution of its examination of the Articles relating to the family and the outcome of current litigation regarding the recognition of a foreign same-sex marriage.

    Legislation for civil partnerships is not a simple or easy matter. To illustrate this, the British Civil Partnership Act 2004 has 264 sections and 30 schedules. Moreover, our written constitution gives rise to complexities that did not arise in the British case.

    Many, probably most, same-sex couples may not want an institution which gives them all the rights, entitlements and duties of marriage. They may prefer a form of civil partnership which protects certain rights of importance to them.

    I can assure you the Government is committed to legislating on this issue. It is a question of “how” rather than “if”.

    My own view is that a marriage analogue is not the way forward. In fact I think that such an approach is a cul-de-sac. I think we have to adopt a different approach.

    I think that cohabiting people develop mutual obligations and entitlements which need a legal framework of recognition – some of which will resemble some of the incidents of marriage in law but in other respects differ substantially from marriage. It seems to me that a co-habiting heterosexual couple may want to stay outside the legal marital relationship but may nevertheless want to create some mutual rights and obligations in their dealings with each other and with society in general. The same applies to gay and lesbian couples. Then there is the case of cohabitants with no sexual dimension to their relationship at all.

    I believe that civil partnership law should be flexible and adaptable to each of these situations.

    For this reason, my personal preference would be for an Act providing legal recognition for a range of civil partnerships chosen by the parties to those partnerships.

    The decriminalisation of homosexual acts was a necessary but by no means sufficient response to the unfairness and discrimination against gay and lesbian people. There are some people who think that “tolerance” as distinct from “respect” is all that gay and lesbian people are entitled to.

    The Government is unequivocally in favour of treating gay people as fully equal citizens in our society. Sexual orientation is not a mere incidental attribute of individual citizens. Sexual orientation is a central component of personality. All citizens, regardless of sexual orientation, stand equal in the eyes of our laws. Sexual orientation cannot be the basis of a second class citizenship.

    Eliminating unfairness for gay and lesbian people will involve a wide range of issues including:

    *Next of kin rights
    *Taxation
    *Home ownership
    *Social welfare
    *Pensions
    *Dependency
    *Succession
    *Joint property

    These are only some of the areas which need careful study and realistic, sustainable responses.

    Enormous changes have been taking place in Ireland in recent years and this is set to continue.

    There now exists a legislative framework to protect people against discrimination both in the employment and non-employment area. The Employment Equality Acts 1998 and 2004 and the Equal Status Acts 2000 to 2004 prohibit discrimination in employment and the provision of goods and services on nine grounds - gender, marital status, family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, disability, race and membership of the Traveller community. This legislation is beginning to deliver practical results for lesbians and gay men.

    In an Equal Status case the Equality Officer found that a gay man had been discriminated against on grounds of his sexual orientation in a hotel bar when he had been singled out for attention by a doorman and asked to leave. Another important decision under the Employment Equality Act concerned harassment based on sexual orientation. The complainant had objected to a number of derogatory and offensive comments at work related to his sexual orientation involving emails and comments overheard. The Equality Officer found that the employer had failed to take adequate measures to prevent the harassment occurring, or to deal appropriately with the incidents which occurred. She awarded compensation to the complainant for harassment, distress and breach of rights under the Act, made an order that the employer revise its Human Resources policies and procedures to accord with the requirements of the Act and provide a training seminar for management and staff to brief them on the Employment Equality Act.

    My Department is currently working on the development of an Immigration and Residence Bill. A discussion document, entitled Immigration and Residence in Ireland, has been published since 12 April 2005. It sets out the range of issues to be considered and indicates how they are likely to be dealt with in the legislation and in future policy. Among the issues the document identifies is the issue of non-marital partnerships and same sex relationships as areas which will need to be considered. I have been conducting a public consultation process which is due to finish tomorrow, 29 July. But feel free to breach that deadline if you want to be heard on the issue. Work is continuing on the development of the Immigration and Residence Bill and I intend to bring legislative proposals to Government later this year.

    Legislation alone will not address all the issues facing lesbians and gays. To quote from the Equality Authority report Implementing Equality for Lesbians, Gays and Bisexuals : "Bringing about inclusion requires strategies to move us from the assumption that a generic service or provision will suit everyone equally, to adapting to the changes required to accommodate the diversity recognised in the Equality Acts of 1998 and 2000."

    Following on from the Equality Authority report the National Economic and Social Council published in 2003 a report entitled Equality Policies for Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual People: Implementation Issues. The active involvement of representatives of the gay and lesbian community along with officials in the preparation of the report contributed immensely to the quality of the report.

    This report is a useful examination of lesbian and gay issues across a range of government activity. For example, the Garda authorities have since established a National Advisory Panel, which includes members who represent the gay perspective, to assist and inform Gardaí on matters relating to the community. Designated Gardaí have received special familiarisation training and have been appointed as liaison officers to the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community.

    Other positive developments include the establishment by the Department of Education and Science of an Intra-Departmental Working Group to examine issues of sexual orientation in the education sector. Also, the Office for Social Inclusion has identified lesbians and gay men as a target group under the National Anti-Poverty Strategy in recognition of the double discrimination and marginalisation lesbians and gay men experience in some poor and minority social groups.

    True, there has been a lot of criticism of the decision to amend the Social Welfare Act so that the benefits awarded to spouses under the Free Schemes are confined to married couples living together and couples cohabiting as husband and wife. But it should be noted that the Government at the same time ordered the Department of Social and Family Affairs to carry out a root and branch review of all its schemes, both statutory and administrative, to ensure that they do not have any unanticipated negative impact on those protected under the nine grounds of the equality legislation, including sexual orientation.

    Although there is a growing climate of equality and support for anti-discrimination action, as you know only too well, the gay community still face isolation, abuse and victimisation on the basis of their sexuality

    There is a need for a structured dialogue between the lesbian and gay community and Government. With this in mind, I intend to respond positively to the recent request from the Gay and Lesbian Equality Network to create a forum in which this process of consultation and dialogue can be maintained.

    Research has shown that successful cities are those in which there is cultural diversity. This success manifests itself economically as well as socially. A touchstone of this is the manner in which gay and lesbian rights are respected. I hope that Dublin can be viewed as a successful city by these criteria. I believe that a much more diverse, heterogeneous sense of Irish-ness will replace the narrow self-image of monochrome, Catholic, nationalist Ireland. Irish-ness must be defined by inclusion rather than exclusion.

    I take this opportunity to wish the 13th Dublin Lesbian and Gay Film Festival great success this weekend and in the future.

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    Warning I'm going to go on a long cynical rant

    OK, yes this is a start (on the road to full equality), it is nothing new though, McDowell has uttered these words before and we've waited (and waited),

    I'd like to know when the survey amongst same-sex couples was done to find out what is important to them or what type of rights they want - or is McDowell assuming what he thinks gay people want?

    When McDowell talks of a range of "civil partnerships" is he comparing us to people who have no relationship whatsoever

    This is in my opinion the minister saying ah sure yeah you can have a few crumbs from the table


    There is little clarity in these proposals

    How will it deal with children in couples?

    Will civil unions be open to opposite sex couples?

    When will this move from talk to an actual government bill?

    Whats rights will it contain? not contain?

    When McDowell talks of a range of "civil partnerships" is he comparing us to people who have no relationship whatsoever? or eldely brothers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyonthewall
    Opponents of Gay and Lesbian Rights need not respond to Michael's 'announcement': they know he's on their side.
    Fair point; I must be feeling unduly optimistic this morning.

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    The proposals made by McDowell are not a commitment to equality for LGB people. He made the arrogant assumption that "most" gay couples don't want the rights and duties of marriage. Why not offer the choice and see how many do?

    McDowell plans to further the rights of heterosexual couples by giving them the option of marriage or civil unions. Yet gay couples won't have the same choice - it'll be marriage lite without half of the benefits (not least the social recognition and affirmation) or nothing at all. It's a disgrace - he should have been booed of the stage. However, I suspect some gay rights activists are less committed to equality for LGB people than they are to their own narrow trendy rejection of marriage (or even the choice of marriage).

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    Hmmm strange.....

    the politics.ie homophobes have yet to rear their ugly heads

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhukov
    However, I suspect some gay rights activists are less committed to equality for LGB people than they are to their own narrow trendy rejection of marriage (or even the choice of marriage).
    You know, I had EXACTLY the same suspicion. I was hopeful that I was just being paranoid. Sadly, since I'm not the only one to have thought it, I wonder now are our greatest opponents the heterophobic and 'different is better' point of view rather than those who have a homophobic perspective.
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    Politics.ie Founder David Cochrane's Avatar
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    Sigh.

    The issue is the seperation of church and state. The government cannot legislate for gay marriage, as marriage is a religious institution. Civil unions and the state recognition of those unions as equal under law to marriage seems most reasonable.

    I'd leave the gay marriage to Pope Benny & Co. Not Mullah McDowell.
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