Suicide bombers

[LordJagged]

I was expressing scepticism that simply following Islam should render one worthy of state monitoring.

OK I've had quite enough of this sort of nonsense.

If, and I think it is not conservative to say if, intelligence services are using risk analyses and data mining techniques in the war on terror, then useful variables will include case's race and religion, however UNPALATABLE that me be to you and other bleeders. When rating individuals for monitoring, being a muslim will instantly make your record go 'ping' like it or not. For it to be seen otherwise is naive.

When scanning the cctv, they were not looking for aryans or chinese grandmothers, [no comments about the odd red head convert please].

These people did not work in a vacuum. The islamic culture that spawned them gave them succour.

[stringjack]

OK I've had quite enough of this sort of nonsense.

If, and I think it is not conservative to say if, intelligence services are using risk analyses and data mining techniques in the war on terror, then useful variables will include case's race and religion, however UNPALATABLE that me be to you and other bleeders. When rating individuals for monitoring, being a muslim will instantly make your record go 'ping' like it or not. For it to be seen otherwise is naive.

I suggested that prospective terrorists engage in behaviour prior to suicide bombings that should draw the attention of intelligence services. Since the vast majority of muslims do not go around blowing up buses (I think you'd agree, we'd have a much more serious problem if they did... at least in the short term...), I don't think that simply being muslim is enough to justify surveillance. I think that regular attendance at small meetings where certain well-known individuals are thought to give lectures explaining why all the godless infidels must be slaughtered might be enough to justify some attention, particularly if combined with certain other facts. So I don't know why you were talking about surveilling all muslims, or invading the privacy and liberty of people simply because they happen to practice a certain religion.

Which brings us to...

These people did not work in a vacuum. The islamic culture that spawned them gave them succour.

This is a crazy non-sequitur. I've been talking about correlations - you've jumped to causation.

[LordJagged]

I suggested that prospective terrorists engage in behaviour prior to suicide bombings that should draw the attention of intelligence services. Since the vast majority of muslims do not go around blowing up buses (I think you'd agree, we'd have a much more serious problem if they did... at least in the short term...), I don't think that simply being muslim is enough to justify surveillance. I think that regular attendance at small meetings where certain well-known individuals are thought to give lectures explaining why all the godless infidels must be slaughtered might be enough to justify some attention, particularly if combined with certain other facts. So I don't know why you were talking about surveilling all muslims, or invading the privacy and liberty of people simply because they happen to practice a certain religion.

The religion of a case is a variable, meetings that they attend are variables, everything is and will be used to profile risk. Trust me.

This is a crazy non-sequitur. I've been talking about correlations - you've jumped to causation.

The concepts of multi case networks will form part of any data mining analysis. It goes far beyond basic concepts such as correlation. If the network/ culture itself is a cause, then it itself will have to be eliminated.

[stringjack]

The religion of a case is a variable, meetings that they attend are variables, everything is and will be used to profile risk. Trust me.

I understand that. What's your point?

The concepts of multi case networks will form part of any data mining analysis. It goes far beyond basic concepts such as correlation. If the network/ culture itself is a cause, then it itself will have to be eliminated.

...and the problem I'm having is with the inference that the culture is a cause.

[LordJagged]

I understand that. What's your point?

It's not an invasion of privacy. It's largely automatic. Innocents have nothing to fear.

...and the problem I'm having is with the inference that the culture is a cause.

Would the bombings have occured in the absence of that 'culture'?

Edit: is it not obvious that it is a major [if not the major] cause?

[stringjack]

It's not an invasion of privacy. It's largely automatic. Innocents have nothing to fear.

That depends on precisely what you're talking about.

Would the bombings have occured in the absense of that 'culture'?

I don't know.

[LordJagged]

LordJagged wrote:
Would the bombings have occured in the absense of that 'culture'?


I don't know.

OK. Now you're talking.

The fact is, homegrown islamic extremists now seem likely to be the culprits for 7-7. Being parsimonious, it would seem to most that a culture has developed that has produced young men willing to 'martyr' themselves in a country that has given their culture space to develop and respect. Believe me, the irony isn't lost on me either.

That 'culture' now needs to be examined, gloves off.

[stringjack]

OK. Now you're talking.

The fact is, homegrown islamic extremists now seem likely to be the culprits for 7-7. Being parsimonious, it would seem to most that a culture has developed that has produced young men willing to 'martyr' themselves in a country that has given their culture space to develop and respect. Believe me, the irony isn't lost on me either.

That 'culture' now needs to be examined, gloves off.

I have no objections to such an examination (and would not have had prior to any attacks, regardless). I'm somewhat concerned, however, that the concept of culture you're using may be seriously deficient. I see no reason to suppose that 'culture' can be considered as a discrete phenomenon, no reason to think that the 'culture' in question is limited geographically to Britain, even if the people with whom we are concerned have never been outside Britain, and certainly no reason to believe that the perpetrators of these attacks share a 'culture' with very many people at all.

[LordJagged]

I see no reason to suppose that 'culture' can be considered as a discrete phenomenon

Depends on your definition of 'discrete'. If taken as a descriptive of variable type, depending on how your variable is defined, then culture can indeed be a discrete variable.

no reason to think that the 'culture' in question is limited geographically to Britain

I never suggested it was. This is a cross-border task.

and certainly no reason to believe that the perpetrators of these attacks share a 'culture' with very many people at all.

Well, next time you get on a bus in Glouchester Road station, I hope for your sake that you're right.

Unfortunately, I fear that you are wrong.

[cleareyed]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...385127,00.html

Unattended bags are one thing, but how do you defend against suicide bombers?

Was it Frank Carson who had the joke during the provo bombing mayhem about the irish fella in the pub; when he got up to leave, everyone else did too. Some variation needed for the suicide variety!