A Two-Tier system of Secular and Non-Secular Schools

[GÓM]

Hi folks,

Two topics are up for discussion; 'Secularism' and 'Catholic Church misteachings of Evolution'. I'd like to put this to you all.
Should we inforce a Scientific, Rational and Honest education for our children or one based on Faith that propagates Religious Dogma, Shame and superstition?

If the Catholic Church is able to influence much of the Catholic churchs throughout the world to alter their teaching of evolution to include Biblical teachings of creationist theory, should we perhaps not recognise a Cathlolic Education as a valid education. While I do agree that Irish schools can't alter their curriculum without the Minister for Education getting a look in. That is not true for other parts of the world. I'm particularly referring to Developing Countries like those in Latin AMerica, Africa and North America where schools typically can make their own curriculum. Irish Universities should not recognise these educations at due to creationism and unscientific, irrational educationalists(if you can even call them that).

The truth is what is important in an education. Not morals, thats for your parents to administor. Society is best served by one of two systems.

1. Where Creationism Might Work: A completely mono-cultural, mono-religious society. Closed in everyway; Economically, No Emigration/Immigaration or Travel, No foreign TV. In fact, a society much like North Korea or East Germany.
2. Where Secularism works and Creationism is not welcome: An Open and outward looking Secular society based on respect for others and heir beliefs. One where the common denominator is logic, rationality and respect. Where people have the freedom to think and do what they wish without bringing harm to themselfs, others or society.

[jjcarroll]

Since, the Catholic Church does not, and has not expressed the slightest intention of rejecting the theory of evolution, the entire premise of this thread falls.

[GÓM]

Since, the Catholic Church does not, and has not expressed the slightest intention of rejecting the theory of evolution, the entire premise of this thread falls.

I don't agree
What about an American student who went to a private Creationist college in the US and got a degree from that college. Should that be recognised here. I think not.

Don't just dismiss it JJ. We should be fighting 'this-sort-of-thing'. Of Creationism gets any more momentum in the US the Global economy could take a hammering. Imagine Capitalists making decisions based on their religous belief???

[jjcarroll]

Since, the Catholic Church does not, and has not expressed the slightest intention of rejecting the theory of evolution, the entire premise of this thread falls.

I don't agree
What about an American student who went to a private Creationist college in the US and got a degree from that college. Should that be recognised here. I think not.

People get degrees from the NUI, but that is allowed so why not? Anyway, what has this got to do with the Catholic Church?

Don't just dismiss it JJ. We should be fighting 'this-sort-of-thing'. Of Creationism gets any more momentum in the US the Global economy could take a hammering. Imagine Capitalists making decisions based on their religous belief???

I am not a fan of creationism as taught in the USA, but if that is your target, then the Catholic Church is irrelevant to this debate, as that is primarily an evangelical protestant issue.

[stringjack]

What about an American student who went to a private Creationist college in the US and got a degree from that college. Should that be recognised here.

Is it?

[GÓM]

What about an American student who went to a private Creationist college in the US and got a degree from that college. Should that be recognised here.

Is it?

Yes by the various treaties and agreements we(Ireland and the EU) have with most of the developed and some of the developing world accept educational standards from around the world.
While some colleges might be unaccredited most of the colleges in the states are small, independent and have a particular ethos of their own. There are numerous Creationist Colleges all over the Mid-West and some on teh east coast also. And mostly we completely recognise their qualifications.

JJ, I'm not in the business of picking which religion is more dogmatic in its education or not. Catholicism is in the business of avoiding extremely important lessons in Biology for example in 2nd level schools here. In almost any European country the second level biology course teaches the absolute importance of the Female Orgasm for reproduction. Without the female orgasm reproduction is many times less likely to occur. If the Church was interest in teaching sex as reproduction awareness of the female orgasm would be an integral part of this education. It is not...

NUI's curriculum is unfortunitly always in the middle of academics pulling it toward secularism/academia(which they are largely successful at achieving) and the Church's own agenda. You'd be mad to study sociology, psychology(not accredited degree in NUI) or Philosphy in NUI.
I'm open to taking them on a case by case basis and reviewing how secular the education is/was. But ultamitly you can't go wrong with a secular education.

[jjcarroll]

JJ, I'm not in the business of picking which religion is more dogmatic in its education or not.

Obviously not, considering that you refered exclusively and misrepresented Catholicism only in your initial and subsequent posts.

Catholicism is in the business of avoiding extremely important lessons in Biology for example in 2nd level schools here. In almost any European country the second level biology course teaches the absolute importance of the Female Orgasm for reproduction. Without the female orgasm reproduction is many times less likely to occur. If the Church was interest in teaching sex as reproduction awareness of the female orgasm would be an integral part of this education. It is not...

Do you have an evidence that the Catholic Church in Ireland had any role in removing this from the educational system? Is it in the British education system?

NUI's curriculum is unfortunitly always in the middle of academics pulling it toward secularism/academia(which they are largely successful at achieving) and the Church's own agenda. You'd be mad to study sociology, psychology(not accredited degree in NUI) or Philosphy in NUI.

Since when has the NUI not accredited physchology? NUIG seem to be offering some sort of undergraduate course in it, and in UCD one can take in as part of an Arts degree. I was merely being sarcastic, but are you seriously contending that course in sociology, philospohy and psychology are fundamentally unsound from the NUI colleges?

[GÓM]

you refered exclusively and misrepresented Catholicism only in your initial and subsequent posts.

I don't see Bertie making a photocall at Canterbury.
I didn't see Bertie at Mecca last time.
Bertie hasn't been known to make trips to see the Dali Lama in Northern India.

My reference to Catholism is perfectly valid in the Irish context as that is the system which has the most influence on the Irish political system, educational system and unfortunitly several people preceptions of their own bodies.

Since when has the NUI not accredited physchology? NUIG seem to be offering some sort of undergraduate course in it. I was merely being sarcastic, but are you seriously contending that course in sociology, philospohy and psychology are fundamentally unsound from the NUI colleges?

Firstly, a degree in Psychology from NUIG or any other NUI will not accredit you to be a practicing Clinical Psychologist. The only undergraduate Programmes that do so in Ireland are in TCD and DBS. Everwhere else requires Postgraduate study. My sarcasm is noted but I'm serious about the psychology

[jjcarroll]

Firstly, a degree in Psychology from NUIG or any other NUI will not accredit you to be a practicing Clinical Psychologist. The only undergraduate Programmes that do so in Ireland are in TCD and DBS. Everwhere else requires Postgraduate study. My sarcasm is noted but I'm serious about the psychology

That has presumably more to do with the fact that the those courses are three year arts degrees. Does the NUI institutions offer courses which can led one to become a practiscing Clinical Psychologist?

I don't see Bertie making a photocall at Canterbury.

I say someone has represented the state in a meeting with the Archbishop of Canterbury at various times, but such a comment reflects a poor understanding of the Anglican congregation.

I didn't see Bertie at Mecca last time.

What has that to do with anything? Bertie was meeting the leader of a secular state not attending a religious function
.

Bertie hasn't been known to make trips to see the Dali Lama in Northern India

Probably because the Dali Lama spends most of his time traveling.

My reference to Catholism is perfectly valid in the Irish context as that is the system which has the most influence on the Irish political system, educational system and unfortunitly several people preceptions of their own bodies.

Your reference dealt with the issue of creationism, something which the Catholic Church does not deal with, directly or indirectly in the education system. Your other comments may or may not be valid, but do not relate the point you originally made about creationism.

[GÓM]

The Catholic Church does teach creationism in Ireland as a matter of course. I'm only 22 and I remember being told in Religion class in primary and secondary(yes I went to a CBS) hearing the creationist filth. The only evolutionary education available to a student in Primary or Secondary is in the Leaving Cert Biology course which many people do not take.
I think it would be safe to say that using statistics for the number of Leaving Cert students that sat the exam in 2004 only 44% of them would have received any education in evolution. The remaining 56% would have had to make do with the Creationist tripe. Not to mention all those that did not sit their leaving cert.