Is anyone watching the debate on Primetime about Immigration?
That video they showed at the beginning was awful... I cant believe how backward people still think:
"my son cant get a part time job in the summer cos of all the immigrants!"
Unbelievable! Immigrants are the only ones who will do these jobs and the reality is that they come in early, leave late, work hard, dont take tea breaks and dont complain! Why wouldnt you employ them?
Please do not vote for suitcases of cash again!
Just saw the tail end of the programme.!!Originally Posted by Printer
Taking that you have a job.! Would you go in early, leave late, work hard, not take tea-breaks and not complain
Is Mise
Grandad
I saw the end of it. It's been a long time coming- this is not a debate that should be held in the shadow of a looming election. It should have been held with the major topics now covered and the prime issues of nuance and complexity teased out for public consumption so that immigration could have been an election issue. Much too late now. And they had too many guests on the show. Fewer guests with longer speaking-time each would have been an improvement. But still, a welcome exception to the general silence on this issue- I'm purposely ignoring the frankly xenephobic and regularly racist posts that regularly go up on boards on this site.
But it is a fair point to make- it is much more difficult for Irish teenagers to get summer jobs today than it was during the decade prior to the 2004 accession. Traditional haunts of teenage part-time work are now virtually empty of Irish workers. Clichéd attempts to disarm this point by saying 'sure no one wants those jobs' or 'the chicks are hot, so stop complaining' are just shirking the substantive point. Immigration is not 100% good so that more means better. There are going to be problems. Let's talk about them.
Have you ever been a manager? I know of no nationality that I could say that of. Individual workers, yes, and I will controversially stick to my guns and say that certain nationalties make better employees than others on average- but every barrel has its share of bad apples.
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the internet, we know this is not true.
Maybe there is some displacement in the Summer job and part-time jobs markets - did you ever think of that? Or are you just another Politically Correct type that thinks all immigrants are good and all Irish are bad?
Regards...jmcc
Maybe there is some displacement, but surely thats the bosses fault not the employees.
Too true. Was quite a sensible and informative discussion though in my opinion.And they had too many guests on the show.
The general consensus seemed to be that the problem is not with the number of immigrants we have. Instead most people seemed to be saying our problem is more that we are not supporting the proper integration of these immigrants, and perhaps they are not working hard enough towards integrating themselves.
Thats what I got out of it anyway. The ICP guy was articulate and rational but he didn't have any decent points against immigration except to say that we have be careful when it comes to integrating different cultures into our own.
His response to the lack of evidence to support a problem with immigrants taking jobs from Irish people, was that he saw it in his own workplace. Considering immigration is the sole issue his party stands for, you would think he would have more than anecdotal evidence to back up what is a pretty crucial piece of his argument against immigration.
Well I would say it is a market thing.
If one fast food place employs a workforce wholly constituted of immigrants and cuts its costs as a result it is advantaged over all the others until they do the same [numerous layers of qualification are left out there- the others could try and get ahead by keeping well-paid, friendly staff (Irish or foreign), but let's keep things simple by holding all other factors constant].
Therefore this is a question of whether we should regulate the market to check this or not. However, I think it's too late for that. And that means that the traditional part-time working environment- where a kid could get a job with a home-made CV and no contacts- is only a fraction of what it used to be. Immigration could be said to have quite significantly impacted on our culture (vis-à-vis teenagers) therefore (assuming I am correct).
This is the problem with the enforced silence of, what I think is more sunstantive than a boogeyman, political correctness. We are not allowed to talk about the process until we have to deal with a resultant problem. So we are arriving at the debate when the schools are busting at the seems, when parents are finding their teenage children jobless summer after summer, and where the housing market has been fundamentally altered- though I think immigration played a lesser role in that last issue here than in the UK.
But flagging this back in 2004 was, in terms of social etiquette, the equivalent of displaying your genitals in public. I think that beneath this debate lies another, more fundamental one. That is, how can public debate be improved? A greater willingness to offend might have to be considered.
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the internet, we know this is not true.
A better attempt by RTE, but as someone just said too many panellists. The politicians and guests looked stiff and uncomfortable, and all just seemed to be warming slightly to it as the programme ended. Showed the general tension that surrounds this subject in this society.
The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.
I agree with most of the points you made but I thought the ICP guy was a little bit offensive in that he was the only person to interrupt anyone else. Nevertheless, the black guy he rudely interrupted put him in his place. As usual he (Neville) had nothing substantive to back up his points but I suppose we're all quite used to that now.
The resounding point from the show was that the government have done nothing effective to help with the integration of immigrants that we badly need to maintain our prosperous economy. I know I've made the point before but it still has to be said: why did our government do nothing when any fool could see we were heading down a road that might lead to problems such as those experienced in the US, UK, France, Holland and Germany. As far as I'm concerned it was an opportunity lost to lead the world in the undeniable benefits of multi-culturalism and integration.
One heartening point from the show was Karen Smith stating that the governments lack of planning has led to people possibly blaming immigrants for issues that have nothing to do with immigrants. The non-nationals on the program all agreed with her and the politicians certainly did not deny it.
A P.ie moderator stated this on June 25th 2010: P.ie tolerates very broad free speech, and thus allows sectarian bigotry etc
When the subject is summer work for under 18s employment law is now so restrictive on hours and breaks ect. it's just far far less hassel and expense to employ migrants who are over 18. Laws ment to stop young people from being exploited are simply making them unemployable and I don't say that lightly, I have extensive experience in this area.
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