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  1. #21
    termcg termcg is offline

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    MPB you need to factor in the cost of production into price rises and then deduct it. Pre 2005 generators did not have to pay for carbon allowances, now they do. Cost of fuel and plant components soared globally since 2005 and while they have come back they are still relatively high.

    Samell yes nuclear is carbon free.... once you have built it but I suppose no one really factors in the carbon footprint of construction and yes nuclear has an extremely low production cost of about 4.5 per MWh. Nuclear is also projected to have a lower levelised cost (i.e. total cost of build and running overs its entire lifespan) than all other technologies assuming gas, coal and carbon prices do not collapse. There are a few real problems with nuclear tho,

    1) Takes about 5-7 years to build once you get through all the licensing, permitting and planning.
    2) Current nuclear plants are big. Westinghouses design is 1,100MW and the French EdF design is 1,600MW. The all island system is ~5,500MW at peak and half that at the lowest point.
    3) Existing nuclear units do not like varying out put so if the unit is 1,100MW and you only need 800MW what do you do with the rest. That said everyone claims the new ones are flexible.
    4) If a unit that size tripped in Ireland you are looking at serious security of supply problems. You need a lot of other generators sitting around with fuel stocks incase it trips.
    5) I presume the new units can refuel while running but the old ones cannot and are off for months at a time.
    6) The old British nuclear fleet has an availability in the 70%s while tne newer but old French fleet in the 80%s. Thats a lot of time they are not running.
    7) Everybody have a view on decommissioning costs and I could make up an equally arbitrary number and give it to you but really no one knows the cost.
    8) If your interested have a look at Olkiluoto 3 in Finland and Flamanville in France. They are the two European nuclear reactors EdF are currently building. Both are around 2 years behind schedule and 2 billion over budget.

    The only way nuclear would work in Ireland is it we have the supergrid transmission system in place with connections to the UK, France, Spain and maybe Scandinavia.
    Last edited by termcg; 7th August 2010 at 03:27 PM.
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  2. #22
    MrFunkyBoogaloo MrFunkyBoogaloo is offline

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    Rip-off Ireland continues. I wonder if there'll be black-outs across the country this year as a lot of people will, most likely, not be able to afford this? You can bet your asses that any reductions sought in CO2 will be counter-balanced by homes turning off electricity and lighting fires instead. And heck, a good excuse to cut the rubbish bill too.
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  3. #23
    jmcc jmcc is offline

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    Wasn't that FFcking teacher Dialup Dempsey responsible for this mess?

    Regards...jmcc
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  4. #24
    termcg termcg is offline

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    MrFunkyBooaloo with all due respect what the hell are you talking about? Blackouts occur when there is insufficient generation to meet demand. Government policy over the last few years has us swamped in baseload generation, add the reduction in demand due to the credit crunch to that mix and now have people turn out the lights we will be swimming in available generation which is not being used, basically the opposite to the possibility of blackouts.

    I think your saving that buy burning wood and coal in the home vs coal and gas in a power station we will increase our carbon emissions. Yep you would be correct but its the lights and washing machine that are the big users with water heating and bear in mind water heating is not just used in radiators.

    Also dont forget that the ESB has a fuel poverty fund for the less well off which its competitors dont, it sells discounted electricity to pensioners and also offers FREE home energy efficiency rating to people, even its competitors costumers.

    Finally all those customers that made the big switch, they are the ones that pay their bills on time by direct debit. Many of the ones that remain pay their bills late or in installments. The competitors wouldn't take them even they applied and maybe some will eventually get disconnected but really despite what people say has the lazy incompetent union infested ESB really ever been in the game of disconnecting people or bringing them to court over unpaid bills? Eventually yes but far from in a capitalistic manner.

    Who is announcing these price hikes, Padraid McManus or Eamonn Ryan, that should tel you whats driving this. If SSE or RWE announce price hikes in the UK Chris Huhne doesn't do it for them. Take it up with with the minister or the CER.
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  5. #25
    MPB MPB is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by termcg View Post
    MrFunkyBooaloo with all due respect what the hell are you talking about? Blackouts occur when there is insufficient generation to meet demand. Government policy over the last few years has us swamped in baseload generation, add the reduction in demand due to the credit crunch to that mix and now have people turn out the lights we will be swimming in available generation which is not being used, basically the opposite to the possibility of blackouts.

    I think your saving that buy burning wood and coal in the home vs coal and gas in a power station we will increase our carbon emissions. Yep you would be correct but its the lights and washing machine that are the big users with water heating and bear in mind water heating is not just used in radiators.

    Also dont forget that the ESB has a fuel poverty fund for the less well off which its competitors dont, it sells discounted electricity to pensioners and also offers FREE home energy efficiency rating to people, even its competitors costumers.

    Finally all those customers that made the big switch, they are the ones that pay their bills on time by direct debit. Many of the ones that remain pay their bills late or in installments. The competitors wouldn't take them even they applied and maybe some will eventually get disconnected but really despite what people say has the lazy incompetent union infested ESB really ever been in the game of disconnecting people or bringing them to court over unpaid bills? Eventually yes but far from in a capitalistic manner.

    Who is announcing these price hikes, Padraid McManus or Eamonn Ryan, that should tel you whats driving this. If SSE or RWE announce price hikes in the UK Chris Huhne doesn't do it for them. Take it up with with the minister or the CER.
    Exactly, this is a Govt issue.

    FF tried to pull a stroke when the EU told them they had to have competition in our Energy market by asking other State Bodies get involved.

    Other companies could not compete because the ESB was selling the cheapest electricity in Europe, so our merry band of idiots decided to install a regulator who fixed prices artificially high, so as to attract competition.

    Hence the ridiculous high cost of electricity provided by 3 over porked State Bodies.

    Privatisation cannot come quick enough.
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  6. #26
    gijoe gijoe is offline
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    As I understand it (and correct me if I am wrong) this increase is applied across the board as a PSO increase to meet the higher costs of renewable energy production costs etc.

    If this is the rationale then we may as well just write off all industrial development in this country right now. Our energy costs are already one of the highest. What heavy energy sapping industry would locate in Ireland with these costs? I know of one firm that employed circa 300 that closed down in the last year because its energy bill had risen form €1million to €3million per annum since they arrived in Ireland about a decade earlier. It was energy, and not labour, costs that drove them out.

    PS I went to the bother of checking up the CER site for the full decison.
    http://www.cer.ie/en/renewables-curr...0-e0b6b187ad69

    You can also read the reaction of some of the businesses affected by the decision. For FDI firms in common they say that their company HQ will just not understand the reason for this increase in costs and that it will put employment at risk.
    Last edited by gijoe; 7th August 2010 at 05:54 PM.
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  7. #27
    junius junius is offline
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    Also dont forget that the ESB has a fuel poverty fund for the less well off which its competitors dont, it sells discounted electricity to pensioners
    The pensioners are some of the most wealthy people in the country nowdays. What about somebody thinking of the real people who are poverty stricken - the 300+ per day who lose their jobs, all the people who having left college can find no jobs, the massive amount of people who because of the actions of many of these wealthy pensioners are reduced to living in abject poverty for the foreseeable future. This country needs it elective heads examined!!
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  8. #28
    termcg termcg is offline

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    MPB are you familiar with the Cap05 contracts for Tynagh Energy and Aughinish Alumina? There are another leg of the poor market decisions by the government. The Cap05 (Capacity 2005) contracts were put in place at a time when the government blocked the ESB from building anymore powerstations in the republic and the price of energy was just too low for anyone else to be interested so these contracts were given out so that the 2 independent generators can never make a loss. Since then the CER has just kept on raising the price to entice people in to the market and the ESB takes the blame and the publics anger.

    The real question is why all this drive for markets? The EU have a policy for 7 regional markets, we are in a region with France and England. These markets must be competitive and France is currently opening up its market further as it got a slap from the EU over EdF's dominant position. The EU's policy will pay off in the long term and there was always going to be some short term pain however the bunch of eejits in power made some ridiculous decisions along the way which now sees us much worse off than we should be. For more on the regional markets look at the European Energy Regulators site Electricity Regional Initiative (ERI)

    gijoe I mentioned earlier this hasn't been my specific area of expertise for about 2 years. Yes the cost of the PSO has gone up year on year due to the increased penetration of renewables. Also with decreased commodity prices the peat stations will be out of the money in the market and so will need a top up. They wouldn't have needed this with the high gas and coal prices. I am very sure business rates are meant to drop as the domestics go up, if thats what you meant by across the board.

    I am very sorry to hear your employer decided to move. The truth of the matter is though Western Europe is too expensive for heavy industry. 500 jobs are going in the UK as they are closing Wyfla nuclear powerstation and no one can or will provide a smelter with power at the same cost.

    Coal mines are subsidised across Europe, especially in Germany, Spain and Poland. The EU is trying to stamp this out by banning government aid by 2015 I think. Again that is just going to reduce the heavy industry in the EU. These companies will move to cheaper locations for energy, labour and no doubt lower safety standards.

    I am not sure what can be done in the short term as the ESB has been subsidising the entire market to the tune of 400M for the last 2 or 3 years. The CER mandates that generators must bid the opportunity cost of their fuel and carbon into the market rather than their actual cost, something could be done around that. I never understood why generators had to bid the full cost of carbon into the price yet got 70% of it for free, good economic theory yes but did it help save 300 jobs where you worked? No it did exactly the opposite. Its a mute point now as the govern has implemented a windfall tax on the free credits so rather than handing it back to the consumers and helping lower costs for businesses they are just using to to cover a few auld unvouched and vouched expenses.
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  9. #29
    termcg termcg is offline

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    Jesus lads I am beginning to feel like Im tonic but my dogma is the ESB can do no wrong. Seriously though I am just trying to get the other side of the facts out there. Feel free to respond with alternative views.

    junius I agree with you. From discounts on bills to free transport to medical cards services and aid should be provided on a need and qualification basis rather than a blanket one. My point was that there is a fuel poverty fund separate to the pensioner discounts.

    Also on the job fronts remember the ESB is facilitating 400 electricians finish their apprenticeships.

    Press release: ESB announces programme to enable 50 percent of redundant electrical apprentices complete training - Press - Electricity Supply Board

    If the government wanted they could get the semi states to start hiring people for the sake of it but I think this would be a retrograde step. Haughey did it in the 80's and in the long run it helped neither the state nor the semi states as this attitude contributed so the less desirable mentalities within these organisations.
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  10. #30
    MPB MPB is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by termcg View Post
    Jesus lads I am beginning to feel like Im tonic but my dogma is the ESB can do no wrong. Seriously though I am just trying to get the other side of the facts out there. Feel free to respond with alternative views.

    junius I agree with you. From discounts on bills to free transport to medical cards services and aid should be provided on a need and qualification basis rather than a blanket one. My point was that there is a fuel poverty fund separate to the pensioner discounts.

    Also on the job fronts remember the ESB is facilitating 400 electricians finish their apprenticeships.

    Press release: ESB announces programme to enable 50 percent of redundant electrical apprentices complete training - Press - Electricity Supply Board

    If the government wanted they could get the semi states to start hiring people for the sake of it but I think this would be a retrograde step. Haughey did it in the 80's and in the long run it helped neither the state nor the semi states as this attitude contributed so the less desirable mentalities within these organisations.
    You are right. The ESB was doing a fine job in supplying Electricity to the citizens and businesses in the country. OK it could be made more efficient but on the whole it was performing well.

    The problem as I see it is the EU. They should have no input into our Energy supply.

    This country is smothered in debt and our Govts solution is to make it more difficult to repay.

    The sooner the better everything collapses, because it really is our only chance of a fresh start.
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