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  1. #11
    MPB MPB is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPN View Post
    I know it won't do much to stop the ill-informed hysteria we can expect on this thread, but I'll just put on the record a couple of useful facts.

    The CER has a formula for calculating electricity prices. Every year the electricity producers send in a report of their costs using the CER formula format. From this the CER calculates the prices for the coming year.

    The net result is that the ESB is forced to charge more for its electricity that necessary because the privateers would not be able to "compete" if they had to sell their electricity at the prices ESB can sell for.

    I'm not aware whether the report in the OP is accurate, but it would strike me that higher finance costs for the privateers may be a factor in any price increase.


    An Phoblacht: Energy supply: Strange things happening in electricity industry

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    So our Govts understanding of competition is having 3 State Companies fight over who can charge the most and the regulators job is to add up the 3 competing estimates, divide by 3 and hey presto, price rise decided.
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  2. #12
    Urmentor Urmentor is offline

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    What are the Greens actually good for except perhaps for making token criticisms of their government partners re use of Government jet.
    Are they adopting a "to hell with everyone, we are going to get hammered at next election anyway" approach I wonder??
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  3. #13
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  4. #14
    termcg termcg is offline

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    SPN I haven't worked on the SEM for over 2 years so my info might be a little out of date but I am fairly sure all prices i.e. customer supply tariffs, directed contracts and the pool price is all based on variable costs and not fixed costs so rent, rates, financing costs etc are not factored in and are meant to be covered by the capacity market and the infra-marginal rent from the pool price.

    As far as I am aware, and let me say I have it on very good authority that domestic rates are going up so business rates can come down. Given that business rates are not regulated I am not entirely sure how this is meant to happen and might just be pipe dream by the CER.
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  5. #15
    SPN SPN is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by MPB View Post
    So our Govts understanding of competition is having 3 State Companies fight over who can charge the most and the regulators job is to add up the 3 competing estimates, divide by 3 and hey presto, price rise decided.
    There are a lot more than three companies in the market, and the formula is a lot more complicated than your idiotic portrayal.

    These Companies (Energia, Endesa, Etc.) were invited to build generation capacity based on the CER formula, and they have legally binding contracts with CER.

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  6. #16
    MPB MPB is offline

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    After Competition was introduced Elecricity prices rose by 64%.

    Since the Competitors were allowed compete in the new rigged market place prices have fallen by 20-25% depending on how you pay your bill.

    In October including a carbon tax, prices will have jumped by another 8%.

    So we will be paying approx 40% more for our Electricity in October 2010 than we did pre competition in 2005.
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  7. #17
    Samell Samell is offline

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    If we are having such a problem cutting the CO2 emissions that our electricity generates then instead of looking at unproven technology, wind, wave etc. let's go for cheap proven solutions, France generates 80% of its power from nuclear stations what is the CO2 output basically 0 there are almost 200 nuclear generating plants in Europe operating now, today . I can hear the squeals of anguish 'what about Chernobyl' what indeed? an old plant, undertrained staff, unsanctioned experiment, poor communication and a regime that refused to ask for help or would admit to failure untill too late. with a nuclear plant ESB could de-commission old, inefficient and poluting plants, cut staff and produce cheap electricity they could sell to the 'private competitors' and get our energy bills down to a reasonable level.
    Green party they appear almost Amish in their regards to technology
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  8. #18
    SPN SPN is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by termcg View Post
    SPN I haven't worked on the SEM for over 2 years so my info might be a little out of date but I am fairly sure all prices i.e. customer supply tariffs, directed contracts and the pool price is all based on variable costs and not fixed costs so rent, rates, financing costs etc are not factored in and are meant to be covered by the capacity market and the infra-marginal rent from the pool price.

    As far as I am aware, and let me say I have it on very good authority that domestic rates are going up so business rates can come down. Given that business rates are not regulated I am not entirely sure how this is meant to happen and might just be pipe dream by the CER.
    It's a long time since I read up the detail either, so I'm just setting out the general concepts.

    However, I'd be very surprised if financing costs are not in the matrix.

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  9. #19
    SPN SPN is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samell View Post
    If we are having such a problem cutting the CO2 emissions that our electricity generates then instead of looking at unproven technology, wind, wave etc. let's go for cheap proven solutions, France generates 80% of its power from nuclear stations what is the CO2 output basically 0 there are almost 200 nuclear generating plants in Europe operating now, today . I can hear the squeals of anguish 'what about Chernobyl' what indeed? an old plant, undertrained staff, unsanctioned experiment, poor communication and a regime that refused to ask for help or would admit to failure untill too late. with a nuclear plant ESB could de-commission old, inefficient and poluting plants, cut staff and produce cheap electricity they could sell to the 'private competitors' and get our energy bills down to a reasonable level.
    Green party they appear almost Amish in their regards to technology
    Nuclear is not cheap. It can only happen if the taxpayer underwrites the profit margins of the privateers and guarantees to cover any costs that they don't want to pay.

    Likewise, the Nuclear Plants that are posited as being suitable for our needs have serious technical problems that need to be addressed, and if these are addressed successfully, they will add Squillions to the cost of the plants which will make them totally uneconomic.#

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  10. #20
    myksav myksav is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by MPB View Post
    After Competition was introduced Elecricity prices rose by 64%.

    Since the Competitors were allowed compete in the new rigged market place prices have fallen by 20-25% depending on how you pay your bill.

    In October including a carbon tax, prices will have jumped by another 8%.

    So we will be paying approx 40% more for our Electricity in October 2010 than we did pre competition in 2005.
    The joys of State controlled competitiveness.
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