Originally Posted by MauriceColgan

An article in todays Irish Times Innovation section by Mark Weisman in Jerusalem is quite revealing.

The workshy Hasidic jews with ever growing numbers and influence are a cause for concern in the state of Israel.

After growing up in an area of the UK surrounded by reform and orthodox jews I understand very well their huge success in business, the arts, and stupidity.

Prompted by this thread and your post, I googled 'Jewish Golf Club' to find evidence that would support my belief that the Jews are an elitist, arrogant bunch using their wealth and power to maintain their elitism.

I found this link:

'It was part of life then to be called a dirty Jew' - Analysis, Opinion - Independent.ie

'It was part of life then to be called a dirty Jew'
Alison O'Riordan takes a fascinating journey through Dublin's Jewish quarter, both past and present

Not an earth-shattering read nor a damascan moment of enlightenment. But interesting.

I still have reservations and an unexplainable anti-Jewish bias. Unjustifiable, perhaps, but ingrained. It is reminiscent of similar sentiments of my youth towards the Quaker community which was quite significant in Waterford. But while the latter have changed, my sentiments that is, the former are more deep-rooted.

Perhaps its time to find out a bit more our Jewish community.

The state of Israel, however, is a different matter and I have no reservations about my abhorrance of it.

Originally Posted by stewiegriffin

Im just a tad worried about all the generalisations in this thread . 'The communists said this ...the Jews that...Arabs etc ..' Surely history and indeed the human race is a little more complex than all this ?

Like i meant to say before . Isnt this more about the modern state of Israel than it is about various myths ,legends and prejudices ?

Not really. Israel should be a small part in it as the Jews were prosecuted long long long before Israel was founded i.e. thousands of years before Israel was founded and of course the Holocaust, the greatest attack on Jews ever, was before Israel was created so clearly putting all down to Israel is simply wrong and the existence of Israel is probably more of a result of hatred towards Jews than a cause.

Why are Jews so influential yet so hated?

I think the influence of Jews is greatly exaggerated. I do not think Jews are genuinely hated. There are not that many of them in the world, therefore it is reasonable to assume that most people do not know a Jew personally and those that do, most do not know them very well. This is probably also the reason why they are hated, there are so few of them. Therefore powerful groups or individuals such as governments can easily vilify them without any significant negative consequences coming of it.

Originally Posted by jcdf

Why are Jews so influential yet so hated?

I think the influence of Jews is greatly exaggerated. I do not think Jews are genuinely hated. There are not that many of them in the world, therefore it is reasonable to assume that most people do not know a Jew personally and those that do, most do not know them very well. This is probably also the reason why they are hated, there are so few of them. Therefore powerful groups or individuals such as governments can easily vilify them without any significant negative consequences coming of it.

Thats about the size of it. The attacks on Jewish memorials and symbols in Moldova last year, in the name of nationalism, are a good example of using the Jews as scape goats.

What is interesting though is groups who use anti-semitism as a corner stone of their beliefs tend to be right wing and admire authoritarianism, depite claims to the contrary. Karl Marx is an increasingly flimsey veil for what are increasingly and more overtly fascist political movements.

Originally Posted by Thac0man

Thats about the size of it. The attacks on Jewish memorials and symbols in Moldova last year, in the name of nationalism, are a good example of using the Jews as scape goats.

What is interesting though is groups who use anti-semitism as a corner stone of their beliefs tend to be right wing and admire authoritarianism, depite claims to the contrary. Karl Marx is an increasingly flimsey veil for what are increasingly and more overtly fascist political movements.

These fascist political movements in eastern Europe, do you think they will just blow themselves out? Throughout most of the Middle East there are anti-Jewish movements that do gain as must attention as those in eastern Europe, whats your thoughts on this?

Originally Posted by jcdf

These fascist political movements in eastern Europe, do you think they will just blow themselves out? Throughout most of the Middle East there are anti-Jewish movements that do gain as must attention as those in eastern Europe, whats your thoughts on this?

In broad terms I don't think Anti-semitism is as wide spread in the Middle East as some might imagine. In the brief lull in hostilites during Araffats tenure as PA chairman Isaeli Jews travelled freely in Egypt and Jordan and did business there as they did in the Westbank. To a large extent they still do. What was notable was the almost complete absense of spontaneous incidents of anti-Jewish violence. I think perhaps the support extremists in the Middle East have is hugely overstated and much of it is not heart felt. In the Arab Middle East many would hold Palestinians in as low regard as they would Jews (or in fact lower). It is my own experience that any violence against a minority usually has a political trigger and is instigated for political reasons, rather than as a result of personal heart felt animosity.

As for Eastern Europe, the rise of Nazist movements is a worry, but it is not exclusive to Eastern Europe, even if it is more overt there. Actual anti-semitism from the far right in Eastern Europe usually comes a close second to anti-communism. Anti-semitism is though something the far left and far right share as core values and use as a tool to promote unity.

In terms of Eastern Europe we might also consider our own part in fostering the rise of the far Right, through our tolerance of the exponets and symbols of Marxism and Stalinism, those things that kept the people of Eastern Europe under the heel for so long. We have ignored the histroy and pain of Eastern European peoples and continue to promote and tolerate the brutish and oppressive docterine of Marxism even though we have never had to suffer its inevitable excesses. A lurch to the right from Eastern Europe would in my opinion be preferable to them having to cow down ad except the watery eyed romantic view of totalitarianism many in the West still hold dear, because we never had to suffer it.

Ultimitely why should we fear the rise of the Far Right in Eastern Europe when one of its most objectionable facets, anti-semitism, is so wide spread in Western Europe? There does seem to be a hint of panic about the far Left, in that they will no longer have a monoploy on street violence and someone other than a state with kids gloves and a 'duty of care' might rise to deal with them. But what happens happens.

It is my opinion that anti-semitism is more prevalent in Europe than it is in the Middle East. It would also be my opinion that anti-semitism is only a tool to provide unity of thought and a target to practive shared agression and hatred on (something to keep the useful idiots occupied and sharp).

Originally Posted by consultant

Prompted by this thread and your post, I googled 'Jewish Golf Club' to find evidence that would support my belief that the Jews are an elitist, arrogant bunch using their wealth and power to maintain their elitism.

I found this link:

'It was part of life then to be called a dirty Jew' - Analysis, Opinion - Independent.ie

'It was part of life then to be called a dirty Jew'
Alison O'Riordan takes a fascinating journey through Dublin's Jewish quarter, both past and present

Not an earth-shattering read nor a damascan moment of enlightenment. But interesting.

I still have reservations and an unexplainable anti-Jewish bias. Unjustifiable, perhaps, but ingrained. It is reminiscent of similar sentiments of my youth towards the Quaker community which was quite significant in Waterford. But while the latter have changed, my sentiments that is, the former are more deep-rooted.

Perhaps its time to find out a bit more our Jewish community.

The state of Israel, however, is a different matter and I have no reservations about my abhorrance of it.

Our daughter worked for a short time in the Jewish Museum Cheetham hill Manchester, where my father, mother, sisters, and myself worked for and were housed by jewish landlords.

We met the good, the bad, and the ugly. It was an education listening to my hairdressers all young jewish lads discussing their lives, and no, not in a shy way.

Generalisations often contain a grain of truth but all in all we have to admire the cultured jews, and despise Israel.

Originally Posted by GJG

This is an extraordinary post. I am breaking it in two, but quoting it in full. L'Chaim gives a very reasonable assessment of reasons that European Jews have made such a disproportionate contribution to almost every sphere of human activity.

Insofar as they are separate, I think that culture is as important as education. Consider the Rabbinical tradition of debate, with consideration given to all arguments. It contrasts sharply with the Catholic position where it was an offence punishable by death for a lay person to even read the bible, let alone challenge the church's interpretation. It seems obvious to me that this type of tradition is far more likely to lead to advances in human knowledge. Malcolm Gladwell explains the importance of generations of culture and tradition to current traits in his book Outliers. I don't think it is overstating it to say that without the Rabbinical tradition of debate, humanity would not have advanced nearly as much as it has in the last 1,000 years.

L'Chaim demonstrates the contradictory nature of much of the prejudice against Jews. I think that this pretty clearly shows that this is post-rationalisation of irrational reactions. For some people the hate comes first, the explanation comes later.

And then L'Chaim says



Really?

• A map of Israel and the occupied territories, accurate as far as I can see
• Some Israeli war planes
• A cartoon highlighting the West's hypocrisy towards the real nuclear weapons in Israel and the imaginary ones in Iran, along with the incredible bravery of one (Jewish) man in opposing them in his country

Just how is this hatred of either Israel or Jews?

You could note how this demonstrates the courage of many Israelis, their commitment to a sense of moral duty, or even the humane treatment of dissent, at least compared to Iran.



There is absolutely nothing in any of the images that refers to religion. Map, war planes, nuclear weapons. Nothing about religion. Where did you get that? L'Chaim, before you go accusing others of bigotry, can I suggest that you examine the reasons why you are seeing hatred and bigotry where they plainly don't exist. As you demonstrate some people, regardless of reality, will always find reasons to hate. Are you one of them?

Look at the thread title and and see what this topic is about. It's "Why are Jews so influential and so hated". That's the topic. Now over half the world's Jews don't live in Israel. If people are saying they see Jews negitively because of Israel, or they see Israel negitively because of Jews then that's bigotry.

And by the way, his follow up post just confirms it - "Just because you get abused by a Nazi, doesn't mean that you get to abuse like a Nazi, especially not from your own pretend country (such as Israel - or, Northern Ireland, now that we're on the topic of pretend countries...). "

Originally Posted by FutureTaoiseach

Criticism of the State of Israel has (in the vast majority of cases) nothing to do with anti-semitism. But it you look back to the earliest times, you will find that the kingdom of Israel also committed aggression and even genocide e.g. under Joshua, the Bible claims that an entire allied tribe was exterminated as punishment for worshipping idols. Anti-Israeli feeling in 2010 is primarily a result of their constant resort to violence to acheive their supposed security/political objectives. War should be a last resort. Europeans also see Israel as repeating 19th century-style European colonial adventurism against people who are being persecuted in part on the basis of notions of racial-superiority or racial-purity - which is a fascist ideology. Islamic terrorism - as opposed to Arab independence movements such as against the Turks/European colonial-powers - have no large-scale history prior to 1948. Israel's flagrant contempt for the Geneva Convention only serve to worsen its perceived moral-authority - even in war there are laws. We live in an age where countries using "soft power" i.e. diplomacy are viewed more favourably than those who constantly resort to "hard power" i.e. military force. Hence the unpopularity of George W Bush and the international popularity of Obama.

Israel's "Poor me" defence doesn't stand up in 2010 in the context of their nuclear deterrent and ethnic-cleansing in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. We don't hear the Amerindian population banging on about the 95% of their numbers killed under the Spanish conquerors of their homelands in the 1500s. The attempt by Israel to use the Holocaust to silence criticism of the policies of that State is emotional-blackmail and hypocritical considering the genocide against the Palestinians. It is ironic that a country founded by Holocaust survivors would then resort to similar methods against the Palestinians.The Islamic empires actually granted the Jews far more tolerance under the Ottomans and Arab states before the creation of the State of Israel. It is the persecution of the Palestinians which has driven anti-semitism in the Muslim world. Honestly: Israel is its own worst enemy. They seem determined to make the Muslim world despise them, and they have been remarkably successful at this. Personally, I defend Israel's right to exist, but not the right to oppress and ethnically-cleanse. Playing the anti-semitic card to silence criticism of their Aparteid regime is beneath contempt and utterly facetious. It has nothing to do with anti-semitism. It is anti-imperialism. It is naive of Israel to think it can treat the Palestinians like the Apartheid Regime treated the Blacks or as the Blacks were treated in the American South before 1964 and that international opinion will be positive towards them. I have nothing against Jews as a group. For example, I greatly admire Israeli conscientious objectors, and Jewish critics of Israeli policy such as Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky and Gideon Levy.

And you've just made the argument why the State of Israel was and is necessary. When you say things like "Islamic empires actually granted Jews far more tolerance under the Ottomans and the Arab states before the creation of Israel", then you are just showing what it was like for Jews. They had to rely on the benevolence of the Kings, Emperors, governments of the states they lived in. But they couldn't depend on it. Their protection could be withdrawn at any time, and often was, depending on the whims of whoever was in charge of where they lived, at any given time. The protection of Jews and tolerance of Jews always depended on the whims of the leaders of the countries they lived in and overnight those protections and being tolerated could and were taken away. With Israel there is now a state where the protection of Jews doesn't depend on the whim of an emperor, king or government. They can protect themselves now and there's a place where they know they are safe. With Israel, Jews don't need to hope they will be granted tolerance. They can depend on it there.

Oh and your constant attempts to equate Jews to Nazis is disgusting. A wonderful journalist, Jonathan Freedland, once wrote of people like you....... "First, they are hyperbolic: no matter how bad Israel is, it is not the third Reich. Second, they seem designed to cancel out the world's empathy for Jewish suffering in the 30s and 40s: under this logic, the Holocaust has now been 'matched' by Israeli misbehaviour, therefore the Jews have forfeited any claim they might once have had to special understanding. The world and the Jews are now even. Third, and worse, the Nazi-Zionist equation does not merely neutralise memories of the Holocaust - it puts Jews on the wrong side of them...Jews end up with the gravest hour in their history first taken away from them - then returned with themselves cast as villains rather than victims. If anti-Zionists wonder why Jews find this antisemitic, perhaps they should imagine the black reaction if the civil rights movement - or any other vehicle of black liberation - was constantly equated with white slave traders of old. It feels like a deliberate attempt to find a people's rawest spot - and tear away at it". D'ya know FT, he could have been writing about you

Originally Posted by FutureTaoiseach

I have nothing against Jews as a group. .

What a relief.