Is the end of Welfare Income nigh / Post Welfare System starting ?

[odie1kanobe]

Given the Clinton Administration cracked down on Welfare during its time it appears that many countries suffering major issues may end up looking at something similar.

A Welfare dependency culture across Western Europe has pushed many people into believing in an Automatic right for the state to support them financially while they have abdicated all responsibility in acting as citizens.

The UK Non Working / Never worked / NEETS is estimated to be approximately 6 million people and no doubt Ireland would find a substantial portion of people whose single belief is the state owes them a living while doing nothing to accept their own responsibilites with the state.

I just seem to find that people are now questioning why Nation states should just accept a bottomless pit of continuing to support those who add nothing but wish to forever take.

In Short are we approaching a Post Welfare System where if you want support from the state then the Nation state has a right to demand something in return.

[bob3344]

In Short are we approaching a Post Welfare System where if you want support from the state then the Nation state has a right to demand something in return.

We're not approaching it quickly enough imo.

And a significant problem is that the cradle-to-grave welfare addicts are the ones having the most kids. Snowball effect.

[Mouroux]

odie1kanobe:
"if you want support from the state then the Nation state has a right to demand something in return"

Few snags for you I'm afraid: the state merely compliments inter-governmental organisations/architecture of global governance. The nation-state and even the very concept of 'nation' (what's that???) has been systematically eroding for at least several decades now --don't see that changing. The only real threat to the emerging global governance and socialism are the middle-classes. This being the case, it is the middle-classes you really need to feel sorry for. Under the new world system, SW recipients are sorted... so stop kidding yourself about rights of the nation-state and pretending that it is in a position to demand anything at all!

[stewiegriffin]

Comparing the US to Ireland is insane imo . Also does the welfare system actually work over there ? Seems to me like many of their cities are screwed up .

[dresden8]

Comparing the US to Ireland is insane imo . Also does the welfare system actually work over there ? Seems to me like many of their cities are screwed up .

It's ok though, the rich receive a disproportionate level of protection from the police. Like most countries.

[Libero]

I just seem to find that people are now questioning why Nation states should just accept a bottomless pit of continuing to support those who add nothing but wish to forever take.

I just seem to find that Fianna Fáil hacks are now questioning how, now they wrecked the country and the money's run out, they can pull off the trick of justifying impoverishing people who want to work by referring to the minority of those who don't want to work, even though they indulged this minority for many years when the government could and should have cracked down.

In Short are we approaching a Post Welfare System where if you want support from the state then the Nation state has a right to demand something in return

.
Like what? You refer to a vague, unspecific "something". Might that be because you've floundered on threads where you're asked to show how workfare can practically work? Might it be because FF have no intention of making people work for welfare, because they can barely administer paying it, but just want a general rhetorical swirl of bullsh1t to justify cutting the rates?

In Short are we approaching a Post Welfare System where if you want support from the state then the Nation state has a right to demand something in return.

Yeah, let me guess: that doesn't include appearing before an Oireachtas Committee, does it?

[Sync]

Given the Clinton Administration cracked down on Welfare during its time it appears that many countries suffering major issues may end up looking at something similar.

A Welfare dependency culture across Western Europe has pushed many people into believing in an Automatic right for the state to support them financially while they have abdicated all responsibility in acting as citizens.

No untrue, but the key to mangement is timing. The time to crack down on this sort of thing was 4 years ago when we had a floating % of seemingly permanent unemployed, despite the fact that retail, fast food and service jobs were crying out for employees. Launching a system now where unemployment is 13% A: requires far more resources and B: Those resources will likely not come back with much.

We've jumped from about 5% to 13% in 2 years. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the 8% have become unemployed through the recession as opposed to just en masse saying "Nah don't wanna work any more" So the money spent investigating that 8% for fraud would be a waste imo.

The time to do this is when the economy has rebounded. Even then though I think we're going to have a higher standing unemployment rate of about 8% made up of the regular people who don't want to work, people migrating jobs and maunfacturing staff who simply can't find work in Ireland any more and can't leave for what ever reason.

The time to do this was years ago. Now is not the optimal time.

The UK Non Working / Never worked / NEETS is estimated to be approximately 6 million people and no doubt Ireland would find a substantial portion of people whose single belief is the state owes them a living while doing nothing to accept their own responsibilites with the state.

I just seem to find that people are now questioning why Nation states should just accept a bottomless pit of continuing to support those who add nothing but wish to forever take.

In Short are we approaching a Post Welfare System where if you want support from the state then the Nation state has a right to demand something in return.

We're talking (or well I'm talking and then being shouted at) about this in a thread titled http://www.politics.ie/current-affai...rogrammes.html . My own idea would be that after 6 months of unsuccessful job seeking, people would spend 2-3 days out of the 7 days they spend searching for work doing public works. Helping pensioners, improving neighbourhoods, helping to build towards a bigger society. You've still got 4 or 5 days to job seek.

But there has to come a point where reality hits and people accept that if you haven't found work after 6 months of looking 7 days a week then not much of a difference is going to be made if you start looking 5 days a week.

We've discussed in other threads the effect a cutoff point like that has. In the US and Austria there is a huge spike in people taking up jobs just before their welfare ends and I would see something like that happening here as well. If it doesn't and people are genuinely unable to find any work, then helping make a happier more produuctive society could well add to their self esteem as well as removing the sense of ennui that kicks in after a sustained period on welfare.


I am not David Cameron. I realise much of that reads like I am.

[lonemother]

[QUOTE=odie1kanobe;2692853].
I just seem to find that people are now questioning why Nation states should just accept a bottomless pit of continuing to support those who add nothing but wish to forever take.QUOTE]

Some people believe all those things about some public service workers, & the political classes, both in America & here. What’s the yardstick?

[The Lighthouse Keeper]

We're not approaching it quickly enough imo.
And a significant problem is that the cradle-to-grave welfare addicts are the ones having the most kids. Snowball effect.

This is the classic: "The rich get richer and the poor have children."
The corellation between fecundity and availability of benefits is there for all to see.
"Middle-classes" have children when they can afford to do so while "Welfare-classes" have children to afford more benefits. Some things will never change.

[LeDroit]

"Welfare-classes" have children to afford more benefits. Some things will never change.

Change occurs when you incentivise the outcome you want to see and stop incentivising the outcome you don't.

Abolish child benefit. Offer food vouchers per child only. Problem solved.

On the wider issue, I support the idea of a neighbourhood/volunteering contribution in lieu of benefits beyond 6 months. It benefits the community and the recipient of welfare benefits.

I think we should abolish the price fixing in the Labour Market which artificially keeps labour costs high and sustains unemployment. The price paid should be what the Market can bear, not what 'Liberty' Hall says.