Property Developers .

[Supermanpolitician]

Building houses and selling them to one another does not "create wealth".

FF have no concept whatsoever of real business and real wealth creation.

I would concur.

Anybody who tried to get help or funding for a high tech firm was hitting their head against a brick wall for years. And these fuçker then come along and tell us we need to invest in the smart economy when they themselves did everything to stifle it!

[charley]

To say that the Property developers own the Government party is wrong , bascially you are saying all developers are supporters of one particular party , developers like most others businesses are supporters of the party in power .
Many developers did take risks and bough land even before the celtic tiger and got lucky . They also paid over inflated prices for land during the boom years .

It is wrong to say developers have been bailed out as they still must repay their debts .
Many farmers etc did well from them .

The risks were immence just look at Sean Dunne and Bernard Mc Namera to mention but two of many .

bernard mc namara's company is currently building extension to letterkenny general hospital ,concrete being supplied by northern companies, is he doing his bit for the irish economy?

[toratoratora]

"in the good times they acquired a lot of wealth for themselves but they took the risks"


They did acquire a lot of wealth for themselves
They hardly took any risks.

When you basically own the governing party and have the power to instruct that party on industry-related policy once a year in a tent in return for donations supporting the democratic process, there is no risk.
And even when it all goes tits-up, the same governing party think up a wheeze to get the ordinary Joe to bail out the property developers in an act of grand larceny never before seen on this island.

Where's the risk??

Have to agree with that. The last time I looked it was John Q Taxpayer that was on the hook for 90Bn, and not the likes of Quinlan, Dunne, Carroll, Fleming, etc. The government can tell us that the developers are not being bailed out until they are blue in the face, but ultimately the entire nation is saddled with the bill for their "risk-taking".

[Eurocitizen]

CIF-Fianna Fail are like Siamese twins. The Galway tent gained notoriety for the corruption of the democratic process which occurred there. And NAMA is their bailout.

Pauli I cannot totally disagree with you but leaving that aside there have been good developements that are worthy of praise .

There are many developers who have been honest and are not been bailed out who have also done some good for the country . If we look at the Dublin Docklands developement few could say it was a bad thing ?

[Malbekh]

I don't have an issue with the majority of developers, a lot of whom were former builders elevated beyond their station in terms of business experience. I don't have an issue with the developers who quietly went about their business and remained pillars of their respective societies.

I do have an issue with developers who were patently stupid and greedy in the manner of their business dealings, and considered themselves to be elites in our society.

You can't *just* blame the developers, you can't *just* blame the banks, and you can't *just* blame the government.

But you can't just expect the blame to fall between these three stools. Bankrupting a country through negligence, cronyism and greed should be a punishable offence, particularly when all the hurt is levied on the citizens.

[Eurocitizen]

Building houses and selling them to one another does not "create wealth".

FF have no concept whatsoever of real business and real wealth creation.

SidneyGhost building houses does create wealth and employment , these houses need to be decorated carpeted , furniture is required along with electrical appliances etc etc .

Money moving around an economy creates wealth and much needed employment .

[Eurocitizen]

I don't have an issue with the majority of developers, a lot of whom were former builders elevated beyond their station in terms of business experience. I don't have an issue with the developers who quietly went about their business and remained pillars of their respective societies.

I do have an issue with developers who were patently stupid and greedy in the manner of their business dealings, and considered themselves to be elites in our society.

You can't *just* blame the developers, you can't *just* blame the banks, and you can't *just* blame the government.

But you can't just expect the blame to fall between these three stools. Bankrupting a company through negligence, cronyism and greed should be a punishable offence, particularly when all the hurt is levied on the citizens.

That is all true but there are developers who have not gone bankrupt and have been in Develope a long time .

My point is that we seem to generalise and label all developers as an evil in society .

They are not all supporters of FF , FG have there share of developers associated with FG .


I think it would be fair to say that not all developers are bad or evil as been protrayed .

[markeys]

People don't hate 'all' developers.

They hate all developers that tramped around Dublin like Lords. They hate FF for taking bribes, for throwing the Republic to the feet of these 'developers' and the banks for throwing money at these developers.

They hate that nobody in FF has been brought to account and that the same FF incompetents that sold the country to these developers are still in power lording it over everyone, telling us we must take the pain when all they are doing is organising thousands of millions of our money to bail out their friends, the elite builders and bankers.
The whole top layer of bankers, builders and FF - including the FF staffed state boards - need to be cleared out. Their corruption an incompetence has directly led us to the economic collaspe we are experiencing and the handing over of our money to these elites.

[Barnacle]

Having dealt with a number of builders and developers in the boom years, I have to say that there good ones and bad ones. The good ones unfortunately are getting a bad name because of the actions of the bad ones and there are many bad ones. The Government facilitated this through legislation, Section Relief, buying land under licence, builders 20% profit tax.

Many builders however have just walked away from their commitment by leaving many estates unfinished, a great deal of this is the fault of councils as they did not inspect developments. I am dealing with one case at the moment where the Council did not inspect the estate once and the entire development is now considered an unauthorised development (many planning conditions not met). This was also facilitated by the engineer signing off when clearly he should not. But trying to get the council now to act is like trying to get blood from a stone.

[johnfás]

I just don't like ostentatious cowboys who think that having a couple of helicopters somehow makes them of any great significance. That is all.

Not all builders are like that, some are, and some just got caught out in the market. That's business.