Poor Joseph. God was a hard act to follow

[yerra]

Steady on folks. The storm troopers of ReichsViceMarschal Ahern are on high alert at this time of year.

[Andrew49]

With respect, that does not answer my question.

The question of the virgin birth or Mary's virginity is not a political one. It is a purely theological/scriptural one. This is a political website. It should stick to political matters and not engage in religious bigotry.

With respect, theologically speaking the Mary's virginity not a 'theological question' at all as the Roman Catholic faith cite it as a fact without question ... indeed she is described as 'perpetual virgin' - without the 'stain or taint of sexual intercourse'. Indeed it could be argued that this labeling of normal, natural sexual relations that consenting adults engage in from time to time as 'sinful', 'dirty', 'an occasion of sin' by the Roman Catholic Church has led to the usurpation of its political power on this island and elsewhere, coupled of course with its recklessness when it came to the protection of children from sexual predators within the higher echelons of its structure.

[long-gone-kiwi]

All Blacks are a bunch of sissy's,everybody knows that

Roland my old mate how have you been ?..what was that about the AB's.?..I'll let it go this time..guess you were cleaning them and they went off.

[Andrew49]

4 hours? Honestly, have people nothing better to do.

[The Caped Cod]

"without the 'stain or taint of sexual intercourse'", oh ho ho ho, "the catholic church", aha ha ha. Oh my sides hurt!

Uh, stirring th Divine Porridge..

[Benincasa]

With respect, theologically speaking the Mary's virginity not a 'theological question' at all as the Roman Catholic faith cite it as a fact without question ... indeed she is described as 'perpetual virgin' - without the 'stain or taint of sexual intercourse'. Indeed it could be argued that this labeling of normal, natural sexual relations that consenting adults engage in from time to time as 'sinful', 'dirty', 'an occasion of sin' by the Roman Catholic Church has led to the usurpation of its political power on this island and elsewhere, coupled of course with its recklessness when it came to the protection of children from sexual predators within the higher echelons of its structure.

No, this IS a theological issue, and not a political one. What you have done is to take a mildly interesting story from NZ and use it as an opportunity to indulge your own bigotry. For whatever reason, the moderators on this site don't have a problem with that. Fair enough, you are entitled to your own opinion and to indulge your prejudices as you see fit. Nonetheless, let's all be aware that that is exactly what is going on here.

For the record, the Church does not, and never has, considered sexual intercourse to be "dirty" or an "occasion of sin". But that is, properly speaking, a theological issue and not one for debate in this location.

[reknaw]

No, this IS a theological issue, and not a political one. What you have done is to take a mildly interesting story from NZ and use it as an opportunity to indulge your own bigotry. For whatever reason, the moderators on this site don't have a problem with that. Fair enough, you are entitled to your own opinion and to indulge your prejudices as you see fit. Nonetheless, let's all be aware that that is exactly what is going on here.

For the record, the Church does not, and never has, considered sexual intercourse to be "dirty" or an "occasion of sin". But that is, properly speaking, a theological issue and not one for debate in this location.

If it is not a political issue, it will become one the minute any body or group tries to have the matter referred to a court of law, press council or similar agency in NZ.

Andrew is to be commended for posting this, as it focuses attention on some very interesting things, not least the willingness of at least one church (Anglican, I suppose) to revisit established beliefs and practices and - yet again - demonstrates how quick the kiddy-fiddler church is to try and suppress expressions of opinion that it does not like. Very relevant indeed here in Ireland and to our body politic, given the experiences of the era when the unelected dictator McQuaid called a lot of the shots and sowed the seeds of a malaise that is still damaging our society today.

As for the church not considering sex "dirty", it is not so long since even married women who were, stupidly, practising Catholics had to be "churched" after they gave birth; in other words, they underwent some kind of ritual to "cleanse" them of the "stain" that had been left on them by the fact of conceiving a child - which in their cases and the absence of the Holy Ghost meant they had to have a real mickey inside them at some stage.

There is no bigotry involved in making a complete mockery of an organisation that has wielded so much power and abused it so badly, but which is now, finally, being revealed as a rather sick joke.

Some of them have been fu<king our children, but all of them fu<k our heads if we let them get away with it.

[Andrew49]

No, this IS a theological issue, and not a political one. What you have done is to take a mildly interesting story from NZ and use it as an opportunity to indulge your own bigotry. For whatever reason, the moderators on this site don't have a problem with that. Fair enough, you are entitled to your own opinion and to indulge your prejudices as you see fit. Nonetheless, let's all be aware that that is exactly what is going on here.

For the record, the Church does not, and never has, considered sexual intercourse to be "dirty" or an "occasion of sin". But that is, properly speaking, a theological issue and not one for debate in this location.

Fr. Tony Flannery ( Rite & Reason link )

We need to look again at our teaching on sexuality. The Catholic attitudes to sex that my generation grew up with were oppressive and guilt-ridden. The ridiculous idea of associating all sexual thoughts and desires with mortal sin was seriously damaging to the person. It led to a great deal of sexual repression, and when sexual attitudes and desires are repressed at an early age, they tend to emerge in gravely unhealthy and perverted ways. The soul was good, and the body was evil, most especially in its sexual nature.

Of all the writers of the New Testament, only Matthew and Luke mention the virgin birth. The apostle Paul never mentions the virgin birth, even though it would have strengthened his arguments in several places. Instead, where Paul does refer to Jesus' birth, he says that Jesus "was born of the seed of David" (Romans 1:3) and was "born of a woman," not a virgin (Galatians 4:4).

It took 4 hours for the poster to be defaced - and 21 days for the Bishop of Limerick to resign after his inexcusable behaviour when it came to the protection of children from clergy sexual predators.

I am definitely bigoted against those who would hurt the innocent and those who would facilitate those who hurt the innocent. I think the overwhelming mass of Roman Catholics are also bigoted against those who would hurt or facilitate the hurting of innocents. And I don't think they would be scandalised by the poster.

[Benincasa]

Andrew is to be commended for posting this, as it focuses attention on some very interesting things, not least the willingness of at least one church (Anglican, I suppose) to revisit established beliefs and practices and - yet again - demonstrates how quick the kiddy-fiddler church is to try and suppress expressions of opinion that it does not like.

By "kiddy-fiddler" church (a term that is deeply offensive to the many survivors of sexual abuse that i know) am I to presume that you mean the CatholicChurch? If so, where is your evidence that it was specifically Catholics who defaced the poster or who try to suppress opinions that they don't like?

[Andrew49]

"without the 'stain or taint of sexual intercourse'", oh ho ho ho, "the catholic church", aha ha ha. Oh my sides hurt!



Uh, stirring the Divine Porridge..