Class in Ireland, 2009

[DerekOwens]

If you want examples of class snobbery...........just look at these forums. It beggers belief the selfish attitudes of some people here

I know. I started this because of the 'pay low quality people to be sterilised' thread (78 pages of hate, with a few interesting contributions mixed in). I'm seriously interested. in class and what people on p.ie think aobut it. thus far, the meaningful contributions appear to have focused on education, which is where I'd place much distinction....

[FutureTaoiseach]

DublinOpinion.com carried out an analysis in 2007 (based on the 2006 census), concluding that the majority were working-class 60-40 (excluding builders and contractors), falling to 59-41 when they were included. A study by Lansdowne in 2004/4, based on the 2002 Census, concluded it was around 53% working-class and 47% middle-upper class. On balance, I think that this country continues to have a working-class majority, though not a huge one.

A health-warning on the DublinOpinion figures from their site:

The figures below omit two sections. One is builders and building contractors (17,119). This is because I can’t see how it’s possible to see them as middle class - not in our economy, anyway, not with the power that they have to dictate economic and political policy. I’ve included them in the second pie-chart, but omitted them from the occupation breakdown. The other is the figure for Gainfully employed but not stated (165,143). This is because, well, it’s not stated what occupations/positions are involved. they could all be cleaners, or they could all be barristers. Who knows. I have included farm owners and managers (72,048) in middle class. The figure is hard to break down into owners and managers, and so all of it goes into middle class.

These were the occupations categorised as working or middle class in the DublinOpinion analysis:

WORKING CLASS OCCUPATIONS/POSITIONS Farm workers - 7,034
Agricultural machinery drives / other farming occupations - 5,555
Fishing and related workers - 1,717
Forestry workers - 1,576
Electricians & electrical maintenance fitters - 25,726
Telephone fitters - 4,124
Cable jointers and lines repairers - 978
Radio, TV and video engineers - 712
Computer engineers (installation/maintenance) - 3,433
Other electrical & electronic trades - 3,402
Toolmakers - 1,369
Metal working production & maintenance fitters - 23,199
Precision instrument makers, goldsmiths, silversmiths… - 1,758
Other machine tool setters & CNC setter-operators - 867
Smiths, forge/metal plate workers & shipwrights - 539
Plumbers, heating/ventilating engineers/related trades - 15,965
Sheet metal workers - 3,152
Welders and steel erectors - 9,028
Motor mechanics, auto electricians, tyre and exhaust fitters - 14,026
Vehicle body repairers, panel beaters & spray painters - 3,616
Moulders & furnace operatives (metal) - 330
electroplaters, galvanisers & colour coaters - 119
Other metal making & treating process operatives - 896
Machine tool operatives (inc. CNC machine tool operatives) - 4,240
Other automatic machine workers, metal polishers, etc 281
Weavers, knitters, warp preparers, bleachers, dyers, finishers - 696
Sewing machinists, menders, darners, embroiderers - 2,702
Coach trimmers, upholsterers, mattress makers - 904
Shoe repairers & other leather makers - 455
Tailors, dressmakers, clothing cutters, milliners, furriers - 851
Other textile, garments & related trades - 427
Tannery production operatives - 128
Spinners, doublers, twisters, winders, reelers - 116
Other textile processing operatives - 1,137
Bakers & flour confectioners - 2,251
Butchers & meat cutters - 5,680
Fishmongers & poultry dressers - 521
Bakery & confectionery process operatives - 867
Tobacco process operatives - 146
Other food & drink (inc. brewing) process operatives - 16,611
Printers, originators, compositors - 3,512
Bookbinders, print finishers, other printing trades - 2,938
Chemical, gas, petroleum process plant operatives - 642
paper, wood and related process plant operatives - 642
Rubber process operatives, moulding machine operatives, tyre builders - 348
Plastics process operatives, moulders, extruders - 2,363
Synthetic fibre, other chemical paper, plastics, related operatives - 919
Cabinet makers - 4,055
Other woodworking trades - 1,051
Glass product, ceramics makers, finishers, other operatives - 2,825
Other craft & related occupations - 2,379
Assemblers. Lineworkers (electrical & electronic goods) - 14,296
Assemblers. Lineworkers (metal goods & other goods) - 11,233
Packers, bottlers, canners, fillers, weighers, graders, sorters - 6,225
Mechanical plant drivers/operatives, crane drivers - 12,632
Fork lift truck drivers - 11,031
Electrical energy, boiler & related plant operatives/attendants - 1,559
woodworking machine operatives - 2,716
Mine (excluding coal) & quarry workers - 2,037
Bricklayers, masons - 15,645
Roofers, slaters, tilers, sheeters, cladders - 6,347
Plasterers - 13,641
Glaziers - 1,156
Floorers, floor coverers, carpet fitters, planners, floor & wall tilers - 2,944
Painters & decorators - 12,652
Scaffolders, riggers, steeplejacks, other construction trades - 6,614
Carpenters & joiners - 37,769
Pipe layers/pipe joiners, related construction workers - 9,788
Rail construction & maintenance workers - 548
Road construction workers, paviors, kerb layers - 8,802
Other building & civil engineering labourers - 37,234
Storekeepers, warehousemen/women,despatch, production control clks - 21,369
Travel & flight attendants - 3,669
Drivers of road goods vehicles - 35,111
Bus conductors & coach drivers - 7,674
Taxi/cab drivers, chauffeurs, couriers - 17,350
Seafarers (merchant navy), barge & boat operatives - 927
Rail engine drivers and other railway line operatives - 1,356
Other transport and machinery operatives n.e.s. - 1,839
Stevedores & dockers - 527
Goods porters - 2,715
Drivers mates - 496
Postal workers & mail sorters - 7,426
Accounts & wages clerks, book-keepers, other financial clerks - 30,538
Cashiers, bank & counter clerks - 27,323
Debt, rent & other cash collectors - 988
Filing, computer, library & other clerks n.e.s. - 77,855
Secretaries, medical, legal, personal assistants, typists, word processor operators - 30,878
Receptionists & receptionist-telephonists - 12,469
Telephone operators, telegraph operators, other office communication system operators- 2,149
Bar staff - 15,727
Buyers and purchasing officers - 2,959
Sales assistants, check-out operators, petrol pump attendants - 93,555
Market/street traders & scrap dealers - 480
Merchandisers, window dressers, floral arrangers, telephone sales - 5,860
Computer operators, data processing operators, other office machine operators - 4,271
Lab technicians - 4,831
Nurses & midwives - 51,145
Medical technicians, dental auxiliaries, dental nurses - 5,543
Nurses’ aids - 9,405
Photographers, camera, sound & video equipment operators - 2,640
Security guards & related occupations - 12,822
Other security & protective service occupations - 1,294
Waiters & waitresses - 15,295
Care assistants & attendants - 33,711
Childminders, nursery nurses & playgroup leaders - 17,342
Educational assistants - 9,512
Hairdressers, barbers, beauticians - 19,112
Housekeepers (domestic & non-domestic) - 5,994
Caretakers p 6,472
Launderers, dry cleaners, pressers - 2,841
Hotel porters & kitchen porters - 8,233
Counterhands & catering assistants - 16,013
Roundsmen/women and van salespersons - 3,348
Local government clerical officers and assistants - 10,221
Prison service officers - 2,537
Police officers (sergeant and below - minus 2,200 for sergeants) - 9,684
Soldiers (minus 33% as estimate for sergeant) - 4,288
Water & sewerage plant attendants - 441
Refuse & salvage collectors - 1,870
Gardeners & groundsmen/women - 9,270
Other plant, machine, process operatives - 9,986
Mates to metal, electrical & related fitters - 1,201
Labourers in engineering & other making/processing industries - 2,459
Window cleaners & car park attendants - 984
Cleaners & domestics - 29,642
Other occupations in sales and services - 985
All other labourers & related workers - 6,959
Railway station workers, supervisors, and guards (-33% for supervisors. est.) - 382
Total 1,125,650
MIDDLE CLASS OCCUPATIONS/POSITIONS
Horticultural trades - 484
Inspectors, viewers, and lab testers - 2,675
Building managers - 6,351
Architects, town planners, surveyors - 6,819
General managers in large companies - 17,048
Production & works managers 20,686
Company financial managers - 7,006
Marketing managers - 30,287
Purchasing managers - 2,113
Personnel managers - 7,823
Other financial managers - 27,398
Entertainment & sport managers - 3,033
Other managers -10,004
Transport managers - 3,214
Stores and warehousing managers - 7,960
Aircraft officers, traffic planners & controllers - 1,548
Ship & hovercraft officers - 705
Bus & road transport depot inspectors - 460
Garage managers & proprietors - 2,054
Managers & proprietors of butchers - 1,252
Managers and proprietors of shops - 50,124
Importers, exporters, commodity and shipping brokers - 551
Technical & wholesale sale representatives - 17,104
Auctioneers, estimators, valuers, other sales reps - 12,088
Credit controllers - 3,343
Bank & building society managers - 8,624
Barristers & solicitors - 10,003
Chartered & certified management accountants - 27,116
Actuaries, economists, statisticians, management consultants & business analysts - 7,037
Librarians, archivists, curators - 1,688
Legal service & related occupations - 2,241
Underwriters, claims assessors, brokers, investment analysts - 14,302
Personnel, industrial relations, work study officers - 4,708
Computer systems managers - 11,518
software engineers - 11,180
Computer analyst programmers - 18,619
Chemists - 1,938
Biological scientists - 4,882
Physicists - 673
Other natural scientists - 2,529
Civil & mining engineers - 6,858
Mechanical engineers - 3,224
Electrical & electronic engineers - 5,055
Chemical production, planning & quality control engineers - 4,200
Design & development engineers - 1,706
Other engineers & technologists - 2,546
Engineering technicians - 1,878
Electrical & electronic technicians - 2,901
Architectural, town planning, building, civil engineering technicians - 3,078
Other scientific technicians - 6,905
Draught persons - 2,497
Building inspectors & quantity surveyors - 3,203
Marine, insurance & other surveyors - 74
Medical practitioners - 10,105
Pharmacists, pharmacologists, ophthalmic & dispensing opticians - 3,729
Dental practitioners - 1,715
Veterinarians - 1,685
Medical radiographers - 1,203
Physiotherapists & chiropodists - 2,569
Occupational & speech therapists, psychotherapists, other therapists - 5,346
Other health associate professionals - 620
Psychologists, other social/behavioural scientists - 2,614
social workers & probation officers - 5,213
Matrons, house-parents, welfare, community, youth workers - 9,867
Clergy - 3,902
Authors, writers, journalists - 6,096
Artists, commercial/industrial artists, graphic/clothing designers - 9,277
Actors, musicians, entertainers, stage managers, producers, directors - 6,165
Professional athletes & sports officials - 4,734
Information officers, career advisors, vocational guidance specialists - 2,089
vocational, industrial trainers, driving instructors - 7,723
Inspectors of factories, trading standards, other statutory inspectors - 790
Other associate professional & technical occupations - 3,133
Hotel & accommodation managers - 7,836
Restaurant & catering managers - 10,991
Publicans, innkeepers, club managers - 8,518
Travel agency managers - 2,156
Chefs & cooks - 21,966
Administrators of schools and colleges - 955
University, RTC & higher education teachers - 10,973
Secondary & vocational education teachers - 30,124
Primary & nursery education teachers - 31,578
Other teaching professionals - 7,268
Senior managers in national government - 775
Local government officers - 1,841
General administrators in national government - 8,459
Civil Service Executive officers - 5,422
Judges - 197
Environmental health workers, occupational hygienists & safety officers - 3,658
Civil Service administrative officers & assistants - 20,795
Fire service officers - 1,856
Senior police and prison officers - 432
Commissioned officers in armed forces - 1009
Police sergeants (estimate) - 2,200
Army sergeants (estimate) - 2,144
Undertakers, bookmakers, personal service workers - 5,099
Farm owners and managers - 72,048
Railway supervisors (estimate) - 191
Total - 760,379

[Cael]

DublinOpinion.com carried out an analysis in 2007 (based on the 2006 census), concluding that the majority were working-class 60-40. However, they specifically decided not to include certain categories like builders in that category. A study by Lansdowne in 2004/4, based on the 2002 Census, concluded it was around 53% working-class and 47% middle-upper class.

I would very much doubt those figures. People tend to talk up their income and lifestyle on the phone.

[YoungLiberal]

I would very much doubt those figures. People tend to talk up their income and lifestyle on the phone.

It was done by the census. Not phone.

Thanks for that FT, an informative post.

[DerekOwens]

Thanks FT, interesting data.

[donalmc]

I think class is a device used by the old left to label people and stop low earners getting aspiration of the nice house and the nice job (i.e. joining the rat race).

[eoghanacht]

Curiosity and the hope of an actually meaningful discussion is to blame for this thread.

Back in the 50s, a judge dismissed a case (between a farmer and a labourer if I recall) on the grounds that Ireland had no class conflict at all. This was, of course, tosh, but fast-forward for a second.

In Ireland 2009, I see tons of class conflict bubbling up, whether in the letters pages of the Indo, on the streets, or threads like this (http://www.politics.ie/health-social...have-kids.html). I'm curious as to whether people see class conflict in contemporary Ireland, and in what forms.

I'm also curious about how people define class, whether by education, disposable income, occupation or anything else.

Keen for everyone's tuppence worth!

fair play for starting this thread, i get sick of all the me fein right wing **************************************** spouted by the ill informed bigots out to sneer at those not as wel;l of as themselves. there's one lurking on this thread already.

the way i see it, it's that it's not working or middle class it's those with wealth and those who have none. c'mon people when u look around at our political class, do u think they are where they are because of merit? not a chance they are where they are because of the schools they went too or who their parents were. u can take that template to the legal or business professions and adjust it to accomodate qualifications aquired through degrees but the same markers remain. did you go to the right school and who you meet there.

you'll get those who will say u can't blame parents for wanting the best for their kids, and i don't but i want to live in a country ruled by meritocracy rather than how fat daddy's wallet.

[FutureTaoiseach]

It was done by the census. Not phone.

Thanks for that FT, an informative post.

Thank you. Will put up my own regional breakdowns in a while. Should be interesting to compare party support by working-middle-class constituencies.

[Cael]

I wonder how many of those 6,000 writers and journos actually get a living wage out of it? And how come cooks are in the middle class? and most primary school teachers are on crap wages, they are really more working class than middle class. Most pub, restaurant and hotel managers would also be on low wages. And how in the name of God do fire service officers get counted as middle class? I would say that middle class figure could probably be cut in half and it would be more accurate.

[DerekOwens]

Thank you. Will put up my own regional breakdowns in a while. Should be interesting to compare party support by working-middle-class constituencies.

That'd be an interesting bit of research alright. Would you email me on whatever you come up with?