Finally saw the wind!

[FutureTaoiseach]

I have read a while ago about this WW1 Irish veteran who was crucified by the Auxilaries and then burnt alive.

Yes, I read that too, and also that the Auxilaries used to eat the still beating hearts ripped alive from kidnapped pre-pubescent girls.

OMG are you serious?

[smiffy]

OMG are you serious?

[sean1]

I have read a while ago about this WW1 Irish veteran who was crucified by the Auxilaries and then burnt alive.

Yes, I read that too, and also that the Auxilaries used to eat the still beating hearts ripped alive from kidnapped pre-pubescent girls.

You are in a daze alright.

[merle haggard]

In one aspect though, Loach though runs very close to misrepresenting things so as to favour his own politics, though this may be down to innocent bias or ignorance. I'm talking about how the characters and storyline could well give the impression that socialists went with the irregulars. Both Damien and Dan side with the anti-Treaty side, but this wasn't universally the case amongst republican socialists. And certainly few of them were under the impression - as these two characters certainly imply - that while the Treaty copperfastened a continually gombeen state, a 32 county republic would somehow escape the same fate. For all their wisdom and inside-out knowledge of Connolly, the two lads never face up to this dilemma, instead peddling the line (and without explaining their reasoning) that while the Treaty meant the status quo with a new flag, a 32 county republic wouldn't, or would at least lower the chances of that being the outcome.

What are you wittering about ? Obviously the choices made by Frank Ryan , Liam Mellowes , Peadar ODonnell and others are irrelevant to the historical narrative in your opinion ?
The free state regime was most definitely a counter revolution . Nobody was fighting for socialism in the free state army . The republic and its democratic programme was based upon sovereignty for the people , power to the people and opposed by the power elites on the island for that basic reason .

feckin trots and their nonsense

[bobbysands81]

Incredible article in some ways - but is it seeking attention perhaps, discretely sensationalist even?

What the f--- does that even mean?

Point taken



I mean that the writer sets out the argument that the British people should reconsider the history of their nation. I don't think the British people would be interested in such a revision.

Hence I don't think the writer is being very realistic - and I would propose that he is trying to...

I don't know what I am talking about.

Good man!!!

Your leader has tried to change the health system but she's not talented enough so according to you she shouldn't have even tried???

You only try if you're going to succeed??? It's only when we fail that we learn how to do things properly.

TWTSTB is a gem of a movie from whatever angle you look at it, one of the best written movies I've ever seen.

[DSCH]

In one aspect though, Loach though runs very close to misrepresenting things so as to favour his own politics, though this may be down to innocent bias or ignorance. I'm talking about how the characters and storyline could well give the impression that socialists went with the irregulars. Both Damien and Dan side with the anti-Treaty side, but this wasn't universally the case amongst republican socialists. And certainly few of them were under the impression - as these two characters certainly imply - that while the Treaty copperfastened a continually gombeen state, a 32 county republic would somehow escape the same fate. For all their wisdom and inside-out knowledge of Connolly, the two lads never face up to this dilemma, instead peddling the line (and without explaining their reasoning) that while the Treaty meant the status quo with a new flag, a 32 county republic wouldn't, or would at least lower the chances of that being the outcome.

What are you wittering about ? Obviously the choices made by Frank Ryan , Liam Mellowes , Peadar ODonnell and others are irrelevant to the historical narrative in your opinion ?
The free state regime was most definitely a counter revolution . Nobody was fighting for socialism in the free state army . The republic and its democratic programme was based upon sovereignty for the people , power to the people and opposed by the power elites on the island for that basic reason .

feckin trots and their nonsense

The vast majority of the anti-treaty side was not interested in socialism either. Indeed socialist opposition to the treaty can, with hindsight, be seen as the beginning of a strain of thought that is opposed to everything.

[Libero]

Yes, I should have phrased my observation better. All I meant to point out is the following...

From the rhetoric and actions of Damien and Dan, one would think that socialists were universally drawn towards not just opposing the Treaty, but also viewing socialist success as being contingent on a 32 county republic.

But the film doesn't explain WHY this would be so. Indeed, it seems to me that not only would a new 32 county republic have had to face the same obstacles to socialism as was present in the young Free State, it would also have had to deal with the extra opposition from hundreds of thousands of more-likely-to-be-landed Protestants up north.

While the film glossed over this, I'm sure this was addressed at the time by socialist republicans. Without dragging the thread off-topic, I'd be greatful if anyone could point me in this direction of an online copy of the following text by Liam Mellows, described in Wikipedia as "he wrote a social programme based on the Dail's Democratic Programme of 1918 aimed at winning popular support for the anti-treaty cause".

[Johnny]

Cracking film.
Shows the Brits, Tans, the Irish stake-in-the-country shoneen class and the Free Staters warts and all - and about time. Best thing about it was that the story was told from the viewpoint of ordinary people without the big personalities of deV, Collins et al getting in the way.

[Jippo]

I hope it's on in Tralee. I really want to see it. Is it critical of the volunteers?

[Johnny]

I hope it's on in Tralee. I really want to see it. Is it critical of the volunteers?

It neither glorifies them nor condemns them. It shows them to be ordinary women and men thrown into an extraordinary situation and who conducted themselves with bravery and courage.