Coughlan: "No evidence of flight from the land"

[Biffo]

Speaking at the launch of the Dept. of Agriculture annual report today Mary Coughlan insisted that there was no evidence of a "flight from the land"
http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/index....6/101-2006.xml

The Minister emphasised that despite concerns about the exit rate from farming land sales remain at historically low levels and prices continue to rise - there is no evidence of the so-called 'flight from the land.

She's obviously not aware that over the last 5 years, 11,000 people have left the land - thats about 6 people every day.

The average farmer made a loss of €3,900 in 2005 - and meanwhile the Department celebrates the fact that it underspent by €250 million!

I think you are missing the point here Barry, It is fair to say that there is no flight from the land considering that "land sales remain at historically low levels". The minister did express concern over the numbers of farmers leaving the industry but unfortunately that is the way it has to be for the industry to survive. Its a very pedantic point you are making here.
While your concern for all things agrarian is to be commended I wonder is it stated FG policy to continue investing at the historic levels the current government are into the industry (That’s if ye ever get around to doing the sums). As you will be aware in 2005 the government spent was €2.3bn and is set to increase this figure to meet the dynamic nature of the industry. The FG policy seems to be to criticise every deal the government does and cite it as the end of Irish farming. The fact of the matter is that if FG enter government with the Green party and with the Workers/Labour party, ye will be convinced/bullied to slash the investment into the sector, so you can save your little lectures about every comment the minister has to make.

Irish agricultural land must be pretty near worthless then.

Its one thing to be sitting on an asset that is valuable but it is quite another to be able to make a living from that asset without selling it.
The argument can be made (from international experience) that the more successful an economy is the fewer the numbers there are working in agriculture, so it is probably inevitable that the numbers of farmers here would be dropping at the levels Barry posted above.
Agriculture still plays a huge roll here not just in terms of contributing towards GDP or employment but towards tourism and the environment.

[BarryW]

The FG policy seems to be to criticise every deal the government does and cite it as the end of Irish farming

So....6 farmers leaving the land every day, and the destruction of the sugar industry....
FF would have no problem with this if they were in opposition? Perfectly ok is it?

Coughlan says there is no flight from the land, even though 7% of the farmers in business when she was appointed have since left.

If you think I'm being pedantic, then you're living on another planet

The fact of the matter is that if FG enter government with the Green party and with the Workers/Labour party, ye will be convinced/bullied to slash the investment into the sector, so you can save your little lectures about every comment the minister has to make

Careful now. We've discussed the respective records of the Rainbow government and FF/PDs before - and you and your mates didn't come out well from it

[Biffo]

The FG policy seems to be to criticise every deal the government does and cite it as the end of Irish farming

So....6 farmers leaving the land every day, and the destruction of the sugar industry....
FF would have no problem with this if they were in opposition? Perfectly ok is it?

Coughlan says there is no flight from the land, even though 7% of the farmers in business when she was appointed have since left.

If you think I'm being pedantic, then you're living on another planet

The land is still being farmed so she is correct in what she says. As I said and you ignored it is to be expected in an economy such as ours that the numbers of farmers will drop. It is a concern but its something that you cannot really prevent without increasing direct payments to smaller farmers.
Now instead of playing with stats and figures that are generally speaking out of government control lets have a look at the brass tax involved; do you consider the €2.3bn direct payments to farmers from the FF/PD government in 2005 to be a) too much, b)too little, or c)about right? I contend that "the real alternative", would not have the same commitment to the farming community as has been seen over the last 10 years, and when I say commitment I‘m talking about funding. (BTW I’m not expecting an exact answer because as we all know FG have no interest in stating any opinion with a figure attached to it when there is some posturing to be done)

The fact of the matter is that if FG enter government with the Green party and with the Workers/Labour party, ye will be convinced/bullied to slash the investment into the sector, so you can save your little lectures about every comment the minister has to make

Careful now. We've discussed the respective records of the Rainbow government and FF/PDs before - and you and your mates didn't come out well from it

I presume that this discussion that you think you won wasn’t about placing shiny new clocks in the Liffey then. I do not know what you are talking about here, you will have to provide the link.

[BarryW]

The land is still being farmed so she is correct in what she says

The land may still be farmed, but less people are deriving an income from it.

Surely the number of people living off the land, rather than the proportion of land being farmed, is of more importance to Coughlan??

As I said and you ignored it is to be expected in an economy such as ours that the numbers of farmers will drop

That's quite a profound statement, and one which I very much doubt you can back up.
I could equally make the case (with far more evidence) that the numbers of farmers should not have dropped. For example- given the enormous potential for export markets for Irish food.
Exports in this area reached a peak in 1998 but have fallen steadily since.

do you consider the €2.3bn direct payments to farmers from the FF/PD government in 2005 to be a) too much, b)too little, or c)about right?

The old FF "throw enough money at a problem...." line. Hasn't worked in any other department, so we'll crack on with it here anyway.
The problems in agriculture are not just about money.
There are other serious problems down the food chain which are adding up and driving farmers out of business.

For example:
- the food labelling scam which continues on a daily basis (where imported food is passed off as "Irish");
- the crazy - and increasing - levels of red tape facing farmers; the total inadequecy of the Appeals Office and its handling of farmer's problems with Grant Aid schemes
- the "don't call us, we'll call you" attitude of the Department of Agriculture (unbelieveably there is no single dedicated number which farmers can ring to seek assistance in relation to any problem)
- the grants for forestry are misguided - they don't encourage alternative use to reduce dependence on fossil fuels, nor do they encourage forestry with a shorter rotation

The Government's biggest failure has been its lack of commitment to Research and Development in the food sector. Coughlan's latest, and much vaunted, "Agri-Vision Report" (or whatever it was called) contained no commitments whatsoever to R&D.

And the list goes on....

FF and the PDs can throw all the money in the world at farmers in the form of direct payments, but they would still find themselves being strangled by all of these sad truths.

(BTW I’m not expecting an exact answer because as we all know FG have no interest in stating any opinion with a figure attached to it when there is some posturing to be done)

Why do you insist on commenting on FG's agriculture policies when you obviously haven't read them and have no idea what you're talking about?

You expended considerable energies recently in trying to completely misrepresent the FG position on the sugar industry - without even reading what had been said by our Spokesperson.

By the way you still haven't directly adressed Coughlan's doublespeak.

- 6 farmers leaving the land every day
- 10,000 farmers have left the land since Coughlan was appointed
- which accounts for a 7% reduction in the total number of farmers since she got the job

.......and she says there is "no evidence of a flight from the land".

Do you honestly think there is no glaring inconsistency in that?

[Biffo]

The reason I say that the number of farmers will drop in an economy experiencing strong growth levels is based on an article I read somewhere which basically made the point that historically speaking when countries who’s economies were largely agricultural based moved towards manufacturing, or whatever, the remaining numbers of farmers had to increase their productivity to meet the demands of the county itself and the international market. As time went by agricultural productivity increased to such an extent that the proportion of the workforce required to meet the demand fell into low single figure percentages. One statistic used to measure the prosperity of a country came to be the percentage of the workforce employed in agriculture: the higher it was, the less prosperous the nation.
I do consider it to be inevitable that the numbers of people farming the land will drop and continue to do so, of course it is a concern but with the implementation of the recommendations of Agrivision 2015 and a serious commitment from the department of finance the interests of farmers are being well served by the current government and hopefully the trend can be corrected.
Now I will not deal with every point you made because I don’t have all the information but to address a few; firstly the point about R&D is nonsense, the minister is on record of having committed to further increase the funding for R&D in the National Development Plan 2007 - 2013 that on top of the increase in funding under the R&D heading already this year.
The food labelling “scam” as you call it has been a serious problem not just for manufacturers but for consumers and that is why included in the report is a commitment that the necessary departments will enact the necessary legislative basis and implement a food labelling regime to provide the maximum information to all consumers on country of origin. This will apply in the first instance to beef products and will be extended as rapidly as possible to other meats.
Your point about forestry grants should be made in the context of a on-going review being carried out by the department and the Forestry Liaison Group on the long-term objectives for forestry in this country. Having said that there are a number of measures that the government have implemented such as the grant scheme for wood burning stoves, a commitment to developing market opportunities for thinning particularly in relation to renewable energy and so on (all the specific details are in the report). It is true to say that we fall well behind the EU average in the amount of farm land afforested where the EU average in about 35% and ours is below 10% and that is why the funding programme is guaranteed until 2013 so farmers can make the decision to afforest all or part of their land in the knowledge that there is a continued commitment from the government to forestry, there will be a major forestry promotion this year, annualised planning targets will be established.

It is not simply a case of throwing money at farmers it is about creating the opportunities for farmers to make an honest living from their land. The agri-vision recommendations were drawn up by an expert group including representatives from farmer, processor, consumer and retailer groups. A forum has been created to ensure the recommendations of the plan are implemented the forum includes all the major players and will consider key issues for the future of the sector. It is important that the department involves all the relevant interest groups into its strategic planning for the sector and that has been carried out effectively in the drafting of this report.

Now you can spend your time coming up with all sorts of clever ways to make the same point about the number of farmers falling until the cows come home , and the prophets of doom in your party can spend their time forecasting the end of farming in this country at every opportunity but the commitment in terms of strategic planning and in terms of investment will continue as long as this government remains in power, the same cannot be said of whatever mishmash of parties Enda Kenny is looking to bring together in his desperate attempt to become taoiseach. Of course it is no surprise that you didn’t answer the question I put to you about the commitment of your party to funding in the sector, why in the hell would FG need to concern themselves with silly little trivialities like cost when ye can simply scoff every proposal that comes along.

[SPN]

The land is still being farmed so she is correct in what she says

This boy has a great future as a FFailure TD.

[qtman]

I could equally make the case (with far more evidence) that the numbers of farmers should not have dropped. For example- given the enormous potential for export markets for Irish food.
Exports in this area reached a peak in 1998 but have fallen steadily since.

Barry, what enormous potential for exports?

Irish food is simply to expensive to support anything other than a small number of farmers producing for niche markets. That has been disguised by the subsidy regime for years, but come 2013 that all goes out the window.

Since joining the EU, we have never had anything other than a FF or FG Minister for Agriculture, and during that the time, the entire focus of agricultural policy has been the extraction of as much money as possible from the European Commission. This has conditioned farmers to think purely in term of bulk production, wihout any regard for efficiency or quality. Hence, we have Irish agriculture facing into de-regulated world markets with an over-priced and fairly mediocre product. I mean, Irish Agriculture can;t even handle the Nitrates Directive, which our competitors have had in place for years.

The oft made claim that Irish beef is of superior quality is fantasy. There are no officials standards governing the production of Irish beef and Irish herds can be fed GMO feedstuffs, which is definite no-no in markest like Austria and Italy. In fact, very little Irish beef even comes from native Irish herds; most of it is Charley, which the same animal that is bred in most parts of the Continent.

The old FF "throw enough money at a problem...." line. Hasn't worked in any other department, so we'll crack on with it here anyway.
The problems in agriculture are not just about money.
There are other serious problems down the food chain which are adding up and driving farmers out of business.

For example:
- the food labelling scam which continues on a daily basis (where imported food is passed off as "Irish");
- the crazy - and increasing - levels of red tape facing farmers; the total inadequecy of the Appeals Office and its handling of farmer's problems with Grant Aid schemes
- the "don't call us, we'll call you" attitude of the Department of Agriculture (unbelieveably there is no single dedicated number which farmers can ring to seek assistance in relation to any problem)
- the grants for forestry are misguided - they don't encourage alternative use to reduce dependence on fossil fuels, nor do they encourage forestry with a shorter rotation

Is that it? These are the issues you think are facing Irish agriculture?

You can't beat that old chestnut "too much red tape"; always a few votes in that one. Good forbid that farmers would have to fell out a few forms; its not like farmers have a bad rep when it comes to compliance, is it?

And the food labelling issue? How many weddings do you think are going to want to have "Roast Sirloin of Brazilian Beef" on their menus? FG and the IFA kick up a big stink about food labelling, but in reality, only a minority of consumers are going to pay a 40% premium to support Irish farmers, particularly when there is little difference in the quality of the product.

And somehow, just somehow, I don't think the quality of Customer Service at the D/Agriculture is going to have an enormous impact on the future of Irish agriculture.

The only solution to the ills of Irish Agriculture is the de-centralisation of production, but given that that will hit the pockets of the IFA fat cats, I don't see either FF or FG supporting it anytime soon.