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About LinkBacksAs do I, both had an Irish parent.Originally Posted by stewiegriffin
As do I, both had an Irish parent.
"We are victims of our own success."
White flight refers to the movement of whites out of Inner city and downtown America during the 1950's and 1960's. It's an actual historical and official label; anybody who calls another racist for using it is a plank.
As for the OP, yes I would fully be open to extending links to our cousins in America, Canada, Britain, Australia, New Zealand etc. It's about time too- some of them are well qualified, and would probably contribute enormously to this country.
Well this is all new to us as a nation , I am merely pondering the issue . The term is used in the UK and US , fair enough , but imo these countries have had their own unique experiences with 'minorities . I think the term is of little use here as most of our immigrants are infact white. I still think the term is based on 'race' by the way . Just like the term black power is . Its an observation not an accusation.Lets not forget that the country that seems to have invented the term (USA) had an aparthed policy untill the sixties and has terrible problems with racism to this day , so they are by no means a good example of how to deal with these issues.
The US is a country built on Immigration and by Immigrants, at the great expense of the Native Proud Peoples like the Navajo; Apache, Mohawks, Shawnee, Miami and Delaware etc......... You can't ever compare the US to Britain or any european Country experiencing Mass Immigration.
The reason is because European countries are ruled and predominently inhabitated by their own native people.............. America isn't, and I'm not attacking Americans beacuse its exactly the same in Canada/NZ and Australia: I have family over in the US and friends on this thread like Mr McNelis.
As a former resident of the UK:
Britain I know for a fact doesn't give a damn about their minorities; if they did there wouldn't be ethnic enclave ghettos, islamophobia because the rising threat of extreme islamd and the distrust of immigrants or their children because of shortage of council housing.
The fact that the murderers of Stephen Lawrence are still walking the streets of London/Britain and free is disgusting........... the bbc exposed that the evidence was overwhelming against the suspects but some of it mysteriously disappeared...... no action has been taken since this exposure.
White Flight is a sociological term used in academia and elsewhere, it alone is not racist.
If anything, it insults the prejudiced whites for being unable to accept the influx of minorities.
It is a problem. Even those who favor globalization, mass immigration and such...they all will relent that the exodus of the affluent "white" citizens causes a severe strain on urban resources, and can be very destructive to communities as they rapidly change character and demographics.
And it isn't just whites who flee. In Providence, Rhode Island there is a neighborhood known as Fox Point.
200 years ago, it was dominated by the French, then the Irish, then the African Americans, and now it is predominantly asian. As time progresses, each group flees the area to escape a sudden influx of a newer group. As such, the neighborhood has a severe planning problem, as various businesses, churches, roads, and schools have been designed to fit the needs of the preceding group, and not the current group.
So all populations will have some tendency to do this. It creates problems, and is bad.
And even if you are not racist, I dont believe I am, or even if you do favor mass immigration...
You have to acknowledge that this IS a problem indeed.
Thats fair and balanced JRM . The difference between us and the US tho , is that many of our immigrants are 'white' so imo the term is not suitable in the Irish context . Infact in my experience most 'affluent' Irish are more afraid of poorer Irish people moving in than they are of foreigners ,be they black or white .
You are correct on a few things...
America is no shining beacon to teach others on race relations. I have used it as an example of not one to FOLLOW, but rather one to AVOID.
"White Flight" is a term, as I described above, that if anything insults whites, not minorities, for being prejudiced.
Whatever you call it, it amounts to the same thing:
People who have lived in a community for generations (regardless of race) see an influx of new people (again regardless of race), the "old" people lack a certain trait of tolerance and ability to adapt to the "new" people, and then they flee to communities further away from the newer residents.
The main problem with this is that those people who leave, will have more money and skills to run their local society than the newer residents who move in after them. This causes a cascade of problems in urban planning, good government, economic development, schooling, and inevitably crime.
And those are only some of the problems being left for the city/community being left.
Those who flee that city, will cause urban sprawl and bring new problems to the communities they make their new homes. What kind of problems?
Easy, consider... if1 million Irish leave urban center and re-locate to more rural lands, they will...
Need more water than is probably available in rural areas
Need more roads to get to their city jobs
Need more police to protect their property in rural areas that have a suddenly higher population
Need more schools for their kids in these rural areas
Need more of everything you use daily in life and take for granted
This is an ecological time bomb that is hanging over the heads of every citizen of the world, regardless of nationality, just like the famed Damacles sword. This is why this problem of "white flight," or whatever you would prefer to call it, is a serious problem indeed.
A problem that EVERYONE should be able to recognize and agree on.
Now the only remaining question, is how to avoid it.
Citizenship for diaspora?
That may help a little, but you need community development with immigrants.
If a Pole wants to move to Dublin for work, and live there permanently there must be some committment to Ireland being made.
Workers can't just cross borders like wandering whores seeking higher wages, and then leaving the community when it suits them.
How one does this in a globalized world, and with an expanding EU, I don't know.
I consider myself smart, smarter than most, but that is a very complicated question, one that probably lacks an answer.
Last edited by JRMcNelis; 22nd July 2009 at 06:35 PM.
JRMcNelis,
Dublin people are not leaving the city - at least not at a larger rate than rural and suburban people are moving in. The government actually attempted to force a whole load of government departments out to smaller towns around the country, and all hell broke loose. They couldn't find staff willing to move. There is more sprawl than ever in Dublin, but that is mainly because of bad planning - ask people making two-hour commutes to Portlaoise every day if they actually want to live there, and I suspect that most of them would tell you they're there because they wanted to buy a house and couldn't afford anything closer.
I think you're confusing white flight with more generalised neighborhood ethnic drift as well. In many US cities that had high rates of immigration, recent immigrants would cluster in one area; this was often because it was inexpensive. Then, as the population matured and people in the community had more money, they would move out to better housing stock. Sometimes the numbers of people living in the community would also fall because there were fewer of them coming in as immigrants.
And do you really think that people abandoning the cities is an actual global problem? Because in most countries for the last few centuries the shift has been toward the cities, not away from them.
And how would citizenship for the diaspora solve this problem? Wouldn't that put more stress on the Irish environment to have still more people coming in? - particularly those with American tastes in car and house sizes.
This statement is really beneath you:
"Workers can't just cross borders like wandering whores seeking higher wages, and then leaving the community when it suits them."
Em, you mean like how the Irish went abroad in search of work, and then returned in massive numbers in the last ten years? Right.
ntab....
No not at all. You mistake my words and sentiment, and the fault is probably mine for not being perfectly clear.
When discussing "white flight" in relation to Dublin and Ireland, I have always said so in the conditional tense.
I visited Ireland last year, but one cannot surmise from 1 visit demographic shifts.
I am reasonable, more than any other word, this one defines me best.
As for global shifts, yes, there is a global shift towards urbanization. But don't end your analysis there.
This trend is the result not of cities becoming more dense, but rather sprawling outward to consume once rural and once suburban areas.
As for giving citizenship to the diaspora, I don't claim that is a solution that will SOLVE this problem.
As for workers going country to country seeking higher wages and leaving when it suits them.
Depending on your view of labor, and the EU, and what role should be taken, this is a sound statement of concern.
If you are pro-big business, enjoy cheap labor, and seek a more federated Europe, that is a EU that resembles more of a United States of Europe, then you should disagree with this statement 100%.
If you think a federated Europe is either a bad thing, or something that Ireland and Europe is not yet ready for, then my post there has merit to be considered.
Do I regret the harshness of tone and word choice? Sure.
But there are lessens to be learned from American history, and problems America had to sought through.
Europe, in adopting the EU, has placed itself in a similar footing as America was in circa 1820.
Why not learn from America's mistakes, and avoid complications for Europe, so that you can build a better life for everyone. Don't think of me as a fanatic, I am far from it. Sure, I will concede poor word choice, and/or lack of clarity. But the only thing I sought to express was a cautionary note to help everyone concerned. Nothing more.
JR - I think you were making some fair enough points. You are right that there has been tremendous growth of sprawl around Dublin - it's a simply hideous situation here, and it's casued by for the most part by corrupt planning.
As for workers leaving when it suits them, I think you're underestimating how bad our economy is. You can't ask people to stay in a country with no jobs. (I think that those who choose to stay and who have paid into the system should be entitled to normal benefits, but for most people leaving home is a tremendous sacrifice, and those who make that sacrifice generally want to work.) I agree that Ireland should do everything it can to facilitate people staying, but you can't blame the workers if there's 12% unemployment and nothing for them to do.
If your argument is that Ireland shouldn't be taking in migrants in the first place, well, then we're snookered. It's too late, and we needed them when we were booming. I think your argument is that this is where diaspora citizenship would come in handy - am I right? (Sorry now but I read much of this thread a few days ago and it's gone hazy on me!) The problem with that is the number of diaspora people who aren't already entitled to citizenship and would actually like to live here would have been far too small to meet our labour needs in the boom, and why wouldn't they go back to their home countries in the bust if the unemployment rates are lower there?
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