What Does The Catholic Church Mean To You?

[Almanac]

Islamic societies (because of or despite islam) preserved the knowledge that disappeared from Christendom (probably not coincidentally) just as Christianity was establishing itself, and that made the renaissance possible.

The above is popular propaganda, as ubiquitous as it if false. It goes against the recent trend of historians of science, who have shown that medieval thinkers laid down the first principles of science, and that it was only within a specifically Christian theological framework that science itself could have developed. At the most basic level this refers to the belief that material reality is ordered, intelligible and non-personal. Nature was considered as nature. Other civilisations were suffused in animism and specific belief systems impeded the development of science. The essential discoveries of the Enlightenment would not have been possible without the conceptual framework provided by their medieval precursors. The Church provided enormous funding for the sciences, and has produced many scientist priests from within its ranks.

A lot of attention has been given to Islamic scientific discoveries but these occurred in spite of not because of Islam since orthodox Islam rejected the idea of fixed laws.

[Factorem]

Paedophile priests

There's no paedophiles in wider society? Is society fundamentally flawed?

Male dominated antiquated institution

And most companies aren't male-dominated? What about Sotheby's? Certainly antiquated. Of course you know better than the clergy.

Stupid ideas on contraception and the use of condoms to protect against stds

Ideas that are rooted in sound philosophy and are very practical in terms of reducing the spread of infections and "accidental" pregnancies. It's not just Catholics who've come to the conclusion that casual sexual encounters are morally wrong.

The church owning a lot of land and property and pontificating about poverty.

Please remind me what a priest's stipend is? It's about €10,000 per year. And it's not as if the Pope takes his holidays on a giant yacht complete with hookers and little hills of cocaine in every room. Also, how do you expect to manage such a complex organisation from a portacabin? Should the Church just dispose of all the historical treasures? It's impossible -- the infrastructure of the Church is necessary to ensure her long-term survival for another 2000 years.

On the plus side I witnessed one local priest very busy in his duties lately in a fairly big parish. It must be hard on a decent priest these days in some of the big parishes with no one to share the work load. You will notice I said "decent priest" but it can be hard to tell what with all the covering up for the dodgy ones.

All priests have their own uniqe talents.

[Pat_Corkery]

Not a thing.

[tmesis2008]

Ideas that are rooted in sound philosophy and are very practical in terms of reducing the spread of infections and "accidental" pregnancies. It's not just Catholics who've come to the conclusion that casual sexual encounters are morally wrong.

Ah come on now, Factorem. Don't be silly. This country is 90% Catholic and...

...The younger generation has even less time for traditional social mores. More than 90pc of under-25s view cohabitation as a perfectly acceptable alternative to marriage while 88pc agree with sex before marriage.

Sex taboos on the way out, poll shows - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie

And that was in 2001.

I'll say this quite clearly: People. Have. Sex. The idea that people should wait to be married before sex is wrong-headed and will never, ever is followed by a population, and could only be promoted by people who don't understand sex and sexual relations.

We can teach people to be responsible about their sexual encounters though. You might as well ask people to stop masturbating...oh...yes...I forgot...you do. Says it all, really. The Catholic Church isn't interested in safe sex, they're interested in denying sexuality.

[silvernut]

. Says it all, really. The Catholic Church isn't interested in safe sex, they're interested in denying sexuality.

Personally, I think they just want to keep their numbers up. They also want to ensure that those new catholics are born into poverty so they become dependent on the church.

And don't forget sin. The church would be nothing without sin.

[Factorem]

Can we poke fun at Jewish people for wearing kippahs while we're at it?

[tmesis2008]

Can we poke fun at Jewish people for wearing kippahs while we're at it?

Man, you're just dying to be a victim, aren't you? I note you had nothing to say about your erstwhile assertion about Catholics and sex before marriage.

I happen to think that kippahs are quite cool, but, of course, if you feel you can make comedy out of it, then, by all means do so.

I remember one time I was slagged off for wearing a flamboyant shirt. Man, I can't tell you how offended I was. Of course, the gardai arrived and removed those jokers so it's all okay now. :mrgreen:

[Almanac]

Specifically to Aggressivesecularist:

Science was doing very well in non-christian ancient greece and its successor civilizations until the ordered material reality of christianity came along. That progress stopped in its tracks at around about that time.

Nothing to do with the barbarian onslaughts then? In fact it was the Church which preserved all the sources of ancient learning throughout the Dark Ages when barbarians were burning down libraries.

Ancient Greece did not have science as we know it. Science as a formal and sustained discipline occurred within a Catholic milieu. Greece along with other great civilisations had certain forms of technology, something which to a greater or lesser degree is a feature of all human groupings. Aside from the myths, the universe was explained by recourse to rationality alone as opposed to experimental investigation. This led to errors such as Aristotle's assumption that a heavier object would reach the ground faster than a lighter one. He also assigned conscious purposes to the movements in the cosmos.

Some small progress was restarted much later (in the high middle ages) by a variety of scholastic philosophers, but even that was connected to the rediscovery of Plato and (especially) Aristotle.

This too is completely wrong. In fact, it was only in breaking away from Aristotle were certain Scholastics able to lay the foundations for the full flowering of science. Aristotle, in spite of his brilliance and immeasurable contribution to western civilisation, had some seriously erroneous views, which directly impeded the development of science, such as the concept of a necessary universe, an eternal earth, the idea that cosmological actors were animated by souls. Scholars agree that breaking the Aristotlean mould was essential for the development of modern science. The idea that the earth was not eternal, that the universe was not necessary (a belief which led to priori assumptions), and that the cosmos was inanimate came directly from Christianity.

Of course, it was all more complicated than that, but anyone who claims science arose out of christian attitudes to the natural world has an agenda. Obviously.

But, as I say, I think you already know that.

You think you know a lot of things.

The de-divinisation of the universe was absolutely essential for the development of modern science, and this is one of the major contributions Christianity made. The process had already begun in the early church, and this was something which immediately separated it from the surrounding and preceding civilisations. By the twelth century Abelard of Bath was able to say: "I will detract nothing from God... but we must listen to the very limits of human knowledge".

[Andrew49]

Is it true that in some dungeon, on dungeons for that matter, their exists buckets of penises placed there after the mutilation of antique statues ? Apparently, during the reign of Pope Paul IV(?), the male member was chiseled from all statues and these representations of male genitalia were then placed in buckets and stored in some dungeon or other places in the Vatican.

Wasn't this an extreme form of art censorship by the Catholic Church?

The Brain On The Sistine Chapel

[Glennshane]

[QUOTE=Andrew49;1483277]Is it true that in some dungeon, on dungeons for that matter, their exists buckets of penises placed there after the mutilation of antique statues ? Apparently, during the reign of Pope Paul IV(?), the male member was chiseled from all statues and these representations of male genitalia were then placed in buckets and stored in some dungeon or other places in the Vatican.

Wasn't this an extreme form of art censorship by the Catholic Church?/QUOTE]

Who owned the statues? Why are you so interested in the internal affairs of the Catholic church?