The Question of "Irishness"

[Danny Invincible]

With increasing multi-culturalism and immigration it has been claimed that our Irish identity is now under constant threat. In the Middle Ages, the Normans and foreign invaders who became subsumed into Irish society were known to be "more Irish than the Irish themselves". In their attempt to fit into the Irish way of life they adopted a strong Irish culture. Could this be a lesson for contemporary Ireland? Is it possible for modern-day immigrants to follow a similar path or is the percieved difference due to skin colour an impossible hurdle to overcome? Or is "Irishness" a solely White pastime?

With exclusive regard to "Irishness", outside the sphere of the alleged threat of multi-culturalism, Nationalists and Republicans in the North (still under British rule it must be pointed out) hang tricolours from lamp-posts and paint the kerbs green, white and orange. Such mass expressions of national identity do not occur south of the border. Second-generation and descendants of Irish emigrants are renowned for re-adopting and advocating the Irish culture their parents gave secondary status in an attempt, like the early Normans in Ireland, to fit in with the host population and leave Ireland behind. Once secure and holding an inclusive feeling with the new culture, second-generation emigrants feel they can reclaim their old "Irishness" and celebrate it without their parent's fear of been cast out or considered as outsiders or strangers in a land where they strive for welcome. A strong sense of cultural nostalgia exists and they often overplay "Irishness" rather than downplay it. New York's St. Patrick's Day parade, for example, is now a huge American event - the largest St. Patrick's Day parade celebration in the world.

Many police and fire departments, with their large Irish component, maintain active "Emerald Societies", bagpipe marching groups, or other similar units....

Saint Patrick's Day is widely celebrated in larger cities across the United States as a day of celebration of all things Irish and faux-Irish. Parades, drinking parties, and festive events mark the day.

The vast majority of Irish immigrants were Anglophones, but some have been Irish-speaking. According to the latest census, the Irish language ranks 66th out of the 322 languages spoken today in the U.S., with over 25,000 speakers in New York and New England. Many of these speakers immigrated in the late 20th century.

The Meaning of Irishness[/i], an Irish-American, George E. Ryan,]Being of Irish descent has formed many of the idiosyncrasies that particularize me as a human being.

I have visited Ireland perhaps 25 times and have been known to enter or exit such places as Rome, Tel Aviv, London, or Copenhagen by way of Dublin or Shannon Airport just to give Aer Lingus my business. The only dog I ever bought was an Irish Wolfhound which I imported from County Kildare by responding to an ad in Ireland of the Welcomes, one of but two magazines I’ve subscribed to for longer than a couple of years. I took Patrick as my name at Confirmation, my wife and I spent our honeymoon touring Ireland in a car, half our children have Gaelic names (Patricia, Noreen, Colleen, and Caitlin), there’s an Irish Hex Sign on my doghouse and my tool shed, and we once owned a Collie we called “Tara.” “Pope John Paul II in Ireland” and Sean O Riada albums grace my record-stand. My stamp collection focuses on two areas only: Irish postage and U.S. stamps with any Celtic aspect at all.

Not much for politics of any sort, I could probably name – and may have met – more Irish politicians than American, and I’m deeply distressed by the conundrum of Northern Ireland. I could weep when I visualize a grandmother of mine standing at a dock in Galway or Cobh saying goodbye to her family and setting out, alone, to become a domestic or a cook in Massachusetts, just to give me my American birth.

My home library is divided into three parts, the largest section of which has to do with Ireland and the American-Irish. My front door sports a brass knocker symbolizing the River Liffey, a cement St. Fiacre presides over my garden, I fly my own Republic of Eire flag on St. Patrick’s Day and around Easter Sunday, and my office, kitchen, living room, den, workshop and sleeping quarters all have wallhangings depicting Irish people, places, or things.

One painting shows the old Ryan neighborhood in Fermoy, County Cork, while a ceramic George Bernard Shaw looks down upon my typewriter– approvingly, I trust. Our state-occasions crystal is Waterford in the Tramore pattern, Belleek decorates our mantle and curio cabinet. Since my first trek to Ireland in 1957, my favorite jackets, sweaters, and hats are of Irish wool.

What does it mean to be Irish? American-Irish? It means that, unless you’re careful, that identity, plus interest and great pride, can chart the course of your life. The last time I painted my house, I instinctively chose green with a white trim and wanted to accent this combination with an orange door. When my wife reminded me that these were the colors
of the Irish flag, I had to admit that maybe my Irishness ran a bit deeper than even I had been aware.

The door’s yellow now and looks foine– er, fine, just fine.

Does the strive for "Irishness" derive from an insecurity of or threat to personal identity - does it exist to suit a human need to cling to and group with others and fit in? Or, in opposite circumstances, does it emanate from an egotistic will to stand out from the rest of society where appropriate - to boast and revel in the luck and charm of the Irish? Is it, thus, an essentially undefined entity which is abused and exploited for personal motives?

Is there actually such an entity as "Irishness" and, if so, what exactly is it? Is it a romantic fantasy - a vague perception or a defined attempt to bind us as a proud nation and people? If "Irishness" ever existed in the past, is it now suffering or does it remain distinctive in the globalist, modern Western and multi-cultural world? Does "Irishness", for example, demand that one supports the Irish soccer team - or does it demand that one goes a step further and abstain from supporting an Irish team playing an "English game"?

In modern-day Ireland, are people afraid to be overly "Irish" due to an underlying and existing apologism deriving from guilt of the violent lash-back to British rule in Ireland? Could this be why nationalism is not as prevalant in the South, where the existence of the nation and identity is secure, as it is in the North, where Irish people feel they must express their "Irishness" as much as possible in the face of the percieved threat of an outside British culture? Irish in the North are still culturally lashing back to win their national identity while Irish in the South, who lashed back in the early 1900's, won their national freedom but held their anti-British sentiments until they felt apologetic for having held such views. For how could a now-free nation (albeit with brothers still unfree) continue to support anti-British sentiment or the slightest hint of anti-British violence when Britain no longer interfered with its affairs? Patriotism is now often viewed as unreasonable and going hand in hand with "over-the-top" anti-Britishness of Republicans. A love for Ireland historically was seen as a patriotic and essential rebellion against Britain. It seems that it still remains so, and because of this, people are scared to be "Irish". They fear they will be lumped in with the patriotic IRA, who declare a love for Ireland, and the violent measures they view as unreasonable.

[GusherING]

I don't feel that Irish people in the south feel compromised in displaying their patriotism by the British, although the whole 1916 Parade thing was probably an exception to that. I think the likes of Irish Americans and to an extent Repblicans in the North feel they use patritosim to distinguish themselves from those around them. Here, though we are all the same, we all know that and thus, extravagant, jingoistic, in your face patriotism isn't really called for.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Of course the context in which the Normans assimilated is very different from present circumstances. The Normans remained loyal to the Crown for centuries, and only really turned against it with the anti-Catholic laws passed after the Reformation. This common sense of being oppressed help assimilate the Normans into Irish identity, even if cultural assimilation had already occurred.

The Northern Protestants are an example then of how differing circumstances can prevent assimilation. They still see themselves as British 400 yrs after coming here. They partitioned the country. I for one do not want to take the risk of it happening again.

Irishness for me is about being descended from the Gaelic-speaking people. These days, most people with Norman surnames also have Gaelic-surnamed cousins. This sense of common ancestory helps bind the Irish people of the South together, and ensure we are a stable country. Introducing elements with which we have little in common can only undermine this, unless most of them intermarry. But they are unlikely to do so, and don't generally do so, although you will get a few examples.

It should also be remembered that the Normans who came here were certainly on a far smaller scale immigration wise relative to the native population. They never outnumbered the original population, although chances are the way things are going with over 100,000 immigrants coming in a year we will be outnumbered in 30-50 years. The current Irish Ferries/displacement issue demonstrates a sign of things to come in the future unless the numbers are controled.

Europe is different from the US and the New World countries in that nation states tend to be based on a common sense of ethnicity. When an ethnic-majority fears losing its majority, it often votes for specifically anti-immigration parties like Fronte Nationale, Vlaams Bloc, Danish Peoples Party, List Pim Fortuyn, Alleanzo Nationale, Freedom Party etc. It is my firm belief that such votes reflect not so much racism, as a great alarm at the erosion of national identity and the stubborn refusal of the PC political elites to listen and address peoples' concerns on immigration. The politicians here may also drive people into voting for hardliners if they don't start listening to peoples' concerns.

The current IF controversy would be an ideal context in which the main parties should re-examine immigration policies without being called "racists" except by a fanatical minority of anti-deportation activists. The media have taken up the concerns of displacement. Perhaps Labour can now wake up to the need for tighter immigration controls, while framing it in terms of the need to protect Irish workers jobs from cheap labour displacement. This would be an effective way of denuding the arguments of the pro-mass-migration pressure groups like RAR.

[XRoot]

Dude, you forgot the customary "No no no, thank you very much!! "

[smiffy]

Of course the context in which the Normans assimilated is very different from present circumstances. The Normans remained loyal to the Crown for centuries, and only really turned against it with the anti-Catholic laws passed after the Reformation. This common sense of being oppressed help assimilate the Normans into Irish identity, even if cultural assimilation had already occurred.

The Northern Protestants are an example then of how differing circumstances can prevent assimilation. They still see themselves as British 400 yrs after coming here. They partitioned the country. I for one do not want to take the risk of it happening again.

Irishness for me is about being descended from the Gaelic-speaking people. These days, most people with Norman surnames also have Gaelic-surnamed cousins. This sense of common ancestory helps bind the Irish people of the South together, and ensure we are a stable country. Introducing elements with which we have little in common can only undermine this, unless most of them intermarry. But they are unlikely to do so, and don't generally do so, although you will get a few examples.

It should also be remembered that the Normans who came here were certainly on a far smaller scale immigration wise relative to the native population. They never outnumbered the original population, although chances are the way things are going with over 100,000 immigrants coming in a year we will be outnumbered in 30-50 years. The current Irish Ferries/displacement issue demonstrates a sign of things to come in the future unless the numbers are controled.

Clearly there's no point in addressing the stupidity of the above, as it's been done too many times before, so the only sensible response would appear to be this:

You're a moron.

[factual]

Of course the context in which the Normans assimilated is very different from present circumstances. The Normans remained loyal to the Crown for centuries, and only really turned against it with the anti-Catholic laws passed after the Reformation. This common sense of being oppressed help assimilate the Normans into Irish identity, even if cultural assimilation had already occurred.

The Northern Protestants are an example then of how differing circumstances can prevent assimilation. They still see themselves as British 400 yrs after coming here. They partitioned the country. I for one do not want to take the risk of it happening again.

Irishness for me is about being descended from the Gaelic-speaking people. These days, most people with Norman surnames also have Gaelic-surnamed cousins. This sense of common ancestory helps bind the Irish people of the South together, and ensure we are a stable country. Introducing elements with which we have little in common can only undermine this, unless most of them intermarry. But they are unlikely to do so, and don't generally do so, although you will get a few examples.

It should also be remembered that the Normans who came here were certainly on a far smaller scale immigration wise relative to the native population. They never outnumbered the original population, although chances are the way things are going with over 100,000 immigrants coming in a year we will be outnumbered in 30-50 years. The current Irish Ferries/displacement issue demonstrates a sign of things to come in the future unless the numbers are controled.

Clearly there's no point in addressing the stupidity of the above, as it's been done too many times before, so the only sensible response would appear to be this:

You're a moron.

Smiffy, I believe in a fairly broad definition. Basically anyone on the island is Irish if they want to be. THere are a number of different strands to it and I wouldn't position one above any other in the hierarchy.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Of course the context in which the Normans assimilated is very different from present circumstances. The Normans remained loyal to the Crown for centuries, and only really turned against it with the anti-Catholic laws passed after the Reformation. This common sense of being oppressed help assimilate the Normans into Irish identity, even if cultural assimilation had already occurred.

The Northern Protestants are an example then of how differing circumstances can prevent assimilation. They still see themselves as British 400 yrs after coming here. They partitioned the country. I for one do not want to take the risk of it happening again.

Irishness for me is about being descended from the Gaelic-speaking people. These days, most people with Norman surnames also have Gaelic-surnamed cousins. This sense of common ancestory helps bind the Irish people of the South together, and ensure we are a stable country. Introducing elements with which we have little in common can only undermine this, unless most of them intermarry. But they are unlikely to do so, and don't generally do so, although you will get a few examples.

It should also be remembered that the Normans who came here were certainly on a far smaller scale immigration wise relative to the native population. They never outnumbered the original population, although chances are the way things are going with over 100,000 immigrants coming in a year we will be outnumbered in 30-50 years. The current Irish Ferries/displacement issue demonstrates a sign of things to come in the future unless the numbers are controled.

Clearly there's no point in addressing the stupidity of the above, as it's been done too many times before, so the only sensible response would appear to be this:

You're a moron.

Smiffy, I believe in a fairly broad definition. Basically anyone on the island is Irish if they want to be. THere are a number of different strands to it and I wouldn't position one above any other in the hierarchy.

You're entitled to your opinion.

Clearly there's no point in addressing the stupidity of the above, as it's been done too many times before, so the only sensible response would appear to be this:

You're a moron.

Classic PC-brigade response. Don't address the concerns just call those expressing them names.

[smiffy]

Smiffy, I believe in a fairly broad definition. Basically anyone on the island is Irish if they want to be. THere are a number of different strands to it and I wouldn't position one above any other in the hierarchy.

Oh, the fact that he's a moron isn't down to his views on what constitutes Irishness. I'd broadly agree with your definition, as I don't think national identity is something that can ever be adequately defined.

The reason FutureTaoiseach is a moron is because of his habit of constantly equating conquest and invasion (as in the Norman invasion or the Plantation of Ulster) with immigration into a stable, democratic state.

This also adds to his status:

Classic PC-brigade response. Don't address the concerns just call those expressing them names.

As you well know, the issue has been addressed many times before. You just choose to ignore the criticism of your position.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Smiffy, I believe in a fairly broad definition. Basically anyone on the island is Irish if they want to be. THere are a number of different strands to it and I wouldn't position one above any other in the hierarchy.

Oh, the fact that he's a moron isn't down to his views on what constitutes Irishness. I'd broadly agree with your definition, as I don't think national identity is something that can ever be adequately defined.

The reason FutureTaoiseach is a moron is because of his habit of constantly equating conquest and invasion (as in the Norman invasion or the Plantation of Ulster) with immigration into a stable, democratic state.

Well the Indian migrant politicians to Fiji have been involved in sometimes violent power-struggles in that country. There is reason to be worried.

[smiffy]

Well the Indian migrant politicians to Fiji have been involved in sometimes violent power-struggles in that country. There is reason to be worried.

Yes, just look at all the indentured servants being brought to Ireland to harvest the sugar crop by our British colonial rulers. Clearly the Irish situation is identical to Fiji's.