Making Ireland British: is the project nearing completion?

[diddleydoo]

Hiberno-English.

If you think something practiced by a single-digit percentage of the population is a most important factor in defining the extent to which we have been "britishised" then you're off your rocker.

You list in your original post the influence of British papers, British television and whatnot. I'll wager with you that there's a significantly higher percentage of the Irish population who does not do ANY of these things than can speak fluent Irish.

So your usage of the Irish language as some kind of indicator to the level of our "Britishness" is ludicrous. It may have some sentimental merit, but statistically it's just not really important.

As to the French, they don't go around thinking all those people speaking French actually ARE French. So the positioning of a language as an official language of a state and your usage of it as some kind of cross-cultural barometer are two very different things altogether.

And by the way..... which percentage of French people actually speak French? A tad more than Irish who speak Irish perchance?

Shane.

[Riadach]

I'm living abroad, so I have a different view on things than most here.

Riadach for example seems to want to grant the irish language some special status regarding irishness. Granted, it'd be nice to know Irish but thinking this broadens your frame of reference is utter nonsense.

Look at the comparison I made. How on earth to you think that knowing the language, thereby having access to the literature, not to mention the concepts calcified within the language itself, does not broaden your frame of reference? You should be careful how you represent my opinions, my view of the relationship between Irish and Irishness is rather strictly defined, to couch it in the terms you did is almost akin to strawmanning.

[Geekzilla]

No, we didn't last long, although it was more to do with being made to watch 'Braveheart' twice in a row one night. Even Eric Cartman would baulk at the devotion to the Gibson...

You have my sympathies.

[Geekzilla]

No, not correct. I would say a west Brit is an Irish person living in Ireland who aspires to be British, by emersing themselves in as much British culture as possible.

Why dont they just move to Britain and get the education first hand!!

You come across a bit like an Irish version of Norman Tebbit.

[18 Brumaire]

Hiberno English, if it exists, is not a language or a dialect. It does not contain the range of registers necessary for a language. You cannot write philosophy in Hiberno English.

[diy01]

Hiberno-English.

If you think something practiced by a single-digit percentage of the population is a most important factor in defining the extent to which we have been "britishised" then you're off your rocker.

I think you're out of your depth here. You aren't making much sense.

You make reference to the fact that habitual Irish speakers only represent a single digit percentage of the population [about 2%]. This is true.

But you seem to be saying it's crazy to suggest this is due to British influence over the centuries?

The fact most Irish people don't speak the Irish language has little or nothing to do with British influence?

I repeat again, from my opening post:

However, it's arguable that Ireland, a sovereign, independent State, is closer to Britain culturally, linguistically, ethnically and socially now than ever before.

Is this not true?

I never said Irish people are British. I never said non-Irish speakers are not Irish. Yet some of those who've responded to this thread seem to think so.

As for Hiberno-English...enough said. But I suppose you'll say it's "nonsense" to bring Irish into the discussion. Here I was thinking the language had a huge influence on the forms of English spoken in Ireland.

And by the way..... which percentage of French people actually speak French? A tad more than Irish who speak Irish perchance?

Are you messing around or are you seriously this clueless? You're proving my point!

The majority of Irish people are monolingual English speakers because that's what the English-later-British regime wanted. They implemented policies which aimed to achieve such a goal. We are now witnessing the final stages of that process, being brought to a conclusion by an independent Irish State.

Language is not the be all and end all of national identity, but it's traditionally seen as one of the most obvious markers.

[Factorem]

Great thread! Surprised I've only come across it now.

[diy01]

"First, I have to finde fault with the abuse of
language, that is, for the speaking of Irish among the English, which, as it is unnaturall
that any people should love anothers language more then their owne, so it is very
inconvenient, and the cause of many other evills"

- Edmund Spenser, 1633

"But the first serious attempt to prescribe
English and proscribe Irish for all the inhabitants of Ireland, came with the centralizing
and unifying rule of Henry VIII. Henry’s ‘Act for the English Order, Habit and
Language’ (1537) ordered that all of the King’s subjects conform to English manners,
dress and language on the ground that linguistic difference created cultural division
and prevented political unity:

'there is again nothing which doth more contain and keep many of his subjects
of this his said land, in a certain savage and wild kind and manner of living,
than the diversity that is betwixt them in tongue, language, order and habit' "
(Stat. Ire. 1786: 28 H 8. c.xv.).

- Tony Crowley "Law, Economics and Cultural Hegemony:
The triumph of English and the loss of Irish in Ireland", HENRY SWEET SOCIETY BULLETIN, November 2006, Scripps College

[clontarfblue]

Ireland has a higher number of Irish Speakers than the Native % stated

Ireland has been a pushover but Irish people are not push-overs................................

Given the current climate, I see ourselves wanting to be more on our own and have our own influence.

I hate Coronation Street and Eastenders
I don't support British Football: <b>Juventus</b> is my team of choice
Our culture is completely separate: We know more about our own history and britains history than they know themselves................... People in the UK don't even know where Dublin is in Ireland..................... that shows how ignorant they are!

We won't ever really be like them thank god

Why dont you support an Irish team????

[Factorem]

With the recruitment freeze in the defence forces, will there now be a major boost in British army applications?