Making Ireland British: is the project nearing completion?

[subaculture]

I am reading a book by Williams, W (2008) Tourism, Landscape and the Irish character at the moment and its its basis premise is the English have never let go of their colonial / imperial mindset about Ireland. Pre-famine, the Irish were judged 'unable' to manage their own affairs, the Brits accusing us of mismanagement and therefore justifying the imperial conquest of Ireland.

The English behave as if they still have a empire and many Irish also acquiesce to that view, and their attitude towards Ireland has not changed. They are still the mainland, and you only have to look/read at the current tone of British reporting about Ireland during this economic crises. Its reminds me exactly of the pre-famine reports, which suggests mismanagement, wild accounting practices, squandering of money and so on. Hell, might be true but its none of their &*&&( business

[diddleydoo]

Interesting thread, which is not a million miles away from some thoughts I was having on another thread about the extent to which many Irish people effectively see London as their capital.

Just to flesh that out a little, what I was getting at was a suggestion that we should actually encourage concentration on Dublin so that it might develop (on a smaller scale, obviously) the kind of opportunities available in London sparks opposition. Emotionally, some folk seem more comfortable with Irish graduates converging on London than on Dublin. In some way its not a threat, as if they accept London is their natural centre of gravity.

Given the choice between Dublin and London, many would actually choose London. And, with the Government decentralisation programme, we saw an overwhelming consensus in favour of dismantling the capital of the Irish State. Why do we need it? Sure that's what London is for.

So, indeed, its no surprise that young men from Westport see joining the British Army as just a doorway to an interesting career. Why should they see a problem with taking an Oath of Allegiance to the British Monarch? The only problem is that Munster, Leinster and Connacht don’t return any Members to the Westminster parliament. They have to send them to some irrelevant institution with a funny Oirish name that meets in Dublin, of all places. But I'm sure we could change that, if we only had the courage to say what we really believe in.

Ha ha ha ha ha, phew Aw man, you crack me up.

Somebody get this guy a tour manager!

Shane.

[diddleydoo]

So why are the Irish still building housing estates and blocks of flats and giving them names like Eton View, Kempton Park, Buckingham Drive, Huntington Lodge, etc. etc.

Who's building them and naming them?

I've never come across names like that, maybe it's a southside thing?

Shane.

[Schuhart]

Wow (and I genuinely mean this) but that post is so far from reality as to be strikingly stupid. Do you actually know any Irish people, and I mean Irish people that don't move in certain millieu's that might be known after certain pejorative terms (indeed, the majority of the population) ?

Well, I actually don’t know what exact ‘milieu’ you’re talking about. But here’s a few quotes from the person I was exchanging posts with on the other thread, which illustrate the kind of attitude. S/he seems to be an IT professional in Cork. Is that the ‘milieu’ you have in mind?

And, yes, I’d suspect these attitudes are out there. Are you pretending we don’t have people from Westport joining the British Army? Which of us is more unaware of the realities of Irish people? Or, rather, which of us is pretending not to see?

So, indeed, my post is grounded in reality. What surprises me is the strong emotional reaction people give to avoid acknowledging these realities. So those quotes:

Here

For graduates of UCC, NUIG, UL and various regional ITs, given the choice of living in Dublin or London, they'll just opt for London - higher salary, similar cost of living, more to do and probably as easy to get home. Given the chance to stay in their region, they might have stayed, but that options just isn't there.

And here

I wouldn't say they see London as their capital, but it might say something about the strength of the Irish nation. Loyalty is to oneself and maximising earnings and career potential rather than to the nation.

Added to that the fact that most people have friends and relatives already in London and it has regular flights to most parts of Ireland, so there's no big hardship involved in living there.

I don’t mean to particularly blaggard that individual poster. But isn’t what he says essentially true. And while he fidgets over the word ‘capital’ because he’s not stupid and can see where that’s leading, he is acknowledging that London is his Mecca. If he can’t live in Cork, he’d rather live in London and participate in the UK economy rather than move to Dublin and contribute to the Irish economy. He also seems to report that many of his peers feel the same.

So why the incredible over-reaction to these realities of our society?

[diddleydoo]

Well, I actually don’t know what exact ‘milieu’ you’re talking about. But here’s a few quotes from the person I was exchanging posts with on the other thread, which illustrate the kind of attitude. S/he seems to be an IT professional in Cork. Is that the ‘milieu’ you have in mind?

And, yes, I’d suspect these attitudes are out there. Are you pretending we don’t have people from Westport joining the British Army? Which of us is more unaware of the realities of Irish people? Or, rather, which of us is pretending not to see?

So, indeed, my post is grounded in reality. What surprises me is the strong emotional reaction people give to avoid acknowledging these realities. So those quotes:

HereAnd hereI don’t mean to particularly blaggard that individual poster. But isn’t what he says essentially true. And while he fidgets over the word ‘capital’ because he’s not stupid and can see where that’s leading, he is acknowledging that London is his Mecca. If he can’t live in Cork, he’d rather live in London and participate in the UK economy rather than move to Dublin and contribute to the Irish economy. He also seems to report that many of his peers feel the same.

So why the incredible over-reaction to these realities of our society?

Because I've never heard of such opinions.

Not from anybody I know.

Nobody I know is working in London or thinking about moving to London.

Comparing earning power increases when moving abroad with "Mecca" is rather silly.

I'm living in Switzerland and contributing to the Swiss economy. Do I want to move back? no. Does that mean Zurich is my Mecca? No. I stay here as long as it's advantageous for me.

Shane.

[Schuhart]

Because I've never heard of such opinions.

Not from anybody I know.

Perhaps you need to get out more.

Do you accept that I’m simply reporting opinions expressed by another poster, who attributes this attitude to his peers.

Nobody I know is working in London or thinking about moving to London.

Fine. Do you accept the other poster I’m referencing is highlighting London as the natural centre for many people he knows?

Comparing earning power increases when moving abroad with "Mecca" is rather silly.

Not in the context where its set – which is that he feels his peers would see London as preferable to Dublin. London is their centre of gravity, not Dublin. They can accept their home towns as satellites of London, but not of Dublin. They can accept London as their centre, and resent any suggestion that Dublin might usurp London’s position in their lives.

Apologies on labouring the point. Take it as a reaction to your very obvious unwillingness to acknowledge these realities about our society. I mean, are you suggesting that an Irish person moving to Zurich would say Added to that the fact that most people have friends and relatives already in Zurich and it has regular flights to most parts of Ireland, so there's no big hardship involved in living there.

I'm living in Switzerland and contributing to the Swiss economy. Do I want to move back? no. Does that mean Zurich is my Mecca? No. I stay here as long as it's advantageous for me.

I feel this is dodging the question. Would you take an Oath of Allegiance to the British monarch and join the British Army if it was advantageous for salary and career? Do you accept the simple fact that many Irish folk do just that?

Can I suggest that pledging allegiance to the Swiss Confederation and joining their army would not have quite the same resonance.

[Spence]

So why the incredible over-reaction to these realities of our society?

Firstly, it's not an over reaction. Secondly, it's not a 'realit[y] of our society' at all, at all but of perhaps part of our society.

I have no doubt that people want the best job available, I have no doubt that they are, in the context of increasing globalisation, willing to go where ever they may find it. Most of my friends are considering going to Austrailia, a significant number have already gone, does that make Syndey or Melbourbe 'the real Irish capital'?

As for people joining the British Army it's a very sad reality but again it means nothing to the vast majority 'of our society'.

Who it does mean something to are does who can't get over the fact that Britain left the 26 counties a long time ago.

Frankly, all I can do is laugh at them and hope they might grow up some day.

[Cael]

Who's building them and naming them?

I've never come across names like that, maybe it's a southside thing?

Shane.

Kempton is on the Navan Road just past Cabra, Huntington is being built right now between Castleknock and Blanch and Eton is just past Palmerstown. Perhaps I was exaggerating with Buckingham, but you wouldnt know. I presume they are getting these foolish names because market research is telling the builders that thats what people want. Builders would call them after types of manure if they thought they would sell quicker.

[Schuhart]

Firstly, it's not an over reaction. Secondly, it's not a 'realit[y] of our society' at all, at all but of perhaps part of our society.

Can I suggest this is a considerable shift from your initial incredulity, where you said my view was so far from reality as to be strikingly stupid. You now seem to accept that my view is actually grounded in reality. You are simply suggesting that the group I'm referring to are a minority.

Maybe you are right. But I feel the decentralisation programme (which did amount to dismantling the national capital) had widespread support. That's just one indication that suggests to me that the anti-Dublin rhetoric we frequently see in regional discourse is actually quite prevalent.

I accept I don't have a scientific basis for saying this. But I do feel your initial over-reaction was unwarranted, and you seem to agree.

Most of my friends are considering going to Austrailia, a significant number have already gone, does that make Syndey or Melbourbe 'the real Irish capital'?

But aren't the resonances quite different. Remember, the poster I'm quoting is explicitly favouring London over Dublin. In the course of an exchange of posts, he's quite emphatic in rejecting Dublin as an alternative to London. As I said, he's happy enough with the idea of Cork City being a sateillite of London, and extremely unhappy at any suggestion that Dublin would usurp London's position.

As for people joining the British Army it's a very sad reality but again it means nothing to the vast majority 'of our society'.

Well, in a context where we've seen a funeral with full British Army military honours in Westport, reportedly attended by more than 1,000 mourners, I'd feel the evidence does not support your opinion.

Who it does mean something to are does who can't get over the fact that Britain left the 26 counties a long time ago.

I've a feeling there's a few who never left the UK and, ironically, some of them are the very ones who would tell you that Dublin is full of West Brits.

I'd actually like it to be different. I think a strong sense of national identity might actually help our society. But if its not there (and its not) I think we'd want to start being honest with each other.

[Spence]

Can I suggest this is a considerable shift from your initial incredulity, where you said my view was so far from reality as to be strikingly stupid. You now seem to accept that my view is actually grounded in reality. You are simply suggesting that the group I'm referring to are a minority.

Haven't moved one iota tbh. The minority are suffering from ideological mystification to the extent that they are removed from the reality 'of our society'. They are strikingly stupid (from my perspective I grant) in the same way someone who supports the Ku Klux Klan is completely removed from reality and to most people is stupid.

Maybe you are right. But I feel the decentralisation programme (which did amount to dismantling the national capital) had widespread support. That's just one indication that suggests to me that the anti-Dublin rhetoric we frequently see in regional discourse is actually quite prevalent.

Maybe Irish people don't like centralisation of authority?

I accept I don't have a scientific basis for saying this. But I do feel your initial over-reaction was unwarranted, and you seem to agree.

I didn't over react and no I don't agree.

But aren't the resonances quite different. Remember, the poster I'm quoting is explicitly favouring London over Dublin. In the course of an exchange of posts, he's quite emphatic in rejecting Dublin as an alternative to London. As I said, he's happy enough with the idea of Cork City being a sateillite of London, and extremely unhappy at any suggestion that Dublin would usurp London's position.

One swallow does not a summer make. I would agree that the provincialism of those people would and does pose a problem. But then it doesn't reflect a significant portion of the population.

Well, in a context where we've seen a funeral with full British Army military honours in Westport, reportedly attended by more than 1,000 mourners, I'd feel the evidence does not support your opinion.I've a feeling there's a few who never left the UK and, ironically, some of them are the very ones who would tell you that Dublin is full of West Brits.

I was at the funeral of a woman who died of cancer before Christmas a similar number attended, again I was at a funeral of a young person killed in a car crash a similar number of people were in attendance. You could perhaps argue that the numbers of the particular British soldier's funeral were boosted by the fact it was, perhaps, a bit of a media event but I wouldn't.

I'd actually like it to be different. I think a strong sense of national identity might actually help our society. But if its not there (and its not) I think we'd want to start being honest with each other.

You seem to suggest that Irish people not going to the funeral of a British soldier would constitute a strong national identity (or at least would be a move towards one). I would suggest that going to the funeral and still having a strong national identity is quite possible.