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  1. #61
    toxic avenger toxic avenger is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew49 View Post
    toxic avenger wrote:Complete nonsense. A Lie. An Untruth. An Attempt To Deceive.This Demeans and Belittles the Abused.

    Not Very Rare At All
    The link you provide confirms my case. Add up the individual cases in the Irish-dominated churches of America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Britain, and Ireland. Then compare with the others. Then consider the proportion of the population it involves relative to the others. Case closed.
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  2. #62
    meriwether2 meriwether2 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by aggressivesecularist View Post
    No, but I couldn't be bothered to argue about this anymore.

    Okay, here chew on this for a bit:

    (a) Deny that there's a substantially higher level of paedophile activity by catholic male catholic religious than the general male population in (say) Ireland.
    (b) Deny that the scake of the orchestrated cover-up by the roman catholic church isn't extraordinary (perhaps unique), isn't bare-facedly dishonest and isn't more serious than collecting kiddie porn (serious and all as that is).

    Good night, I have more interesting things to do than argue the toss with people who've made up their minds a long time ago and won't let the truth get in the way.

    Why apologetics is still considered a respectable academic discipline is entirely beyond my powers of understanding.
    I suppose its unfortunate that the AS has voluntarily removed his intellectual might from this conversation, but we must struggle on, I suppose.

    (a) Deny that there's a substantially higher level of paedophile activity by catholic male catholic religious than the general male population in (say) Ireland
    .
    There's a substantially higher level of criminal activity among male blacks in the US than the general US population.
    And doggone it, they've stuck one in the White House! For gods sake, he'l sell all the silverware!

    (b) Deny that the scake of the orchestrated cover-up by the roman catholic church isn't extraordinary (perhaps unique), isn't bare-facedly dishonest and isn't more serious than collecting kiddie porn (serious and all as that is).
    The award for the statmement of the bleeding obvious goes to.......
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  3. #63
    H.R. Haldeman H.R. Haldeman is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by myksav View Post
    Cover-up's. I haven't heard much if anything about the non-clergy that were caught with child porn on their computers. Most that were caught were "men of high standing" in society. Some of these were/are Judges, barristers, and such authority positioned people. A deafening silence followed and I didn't hear anything about trials or sentencing, never mind the level of despite thrown at the Church that we've witnessed.
    Quietly swept under the carpet and forgotten about.

    But I guess the clergy make a nice easy visible target.

    Yes, but a whole bunch of Judges didn't get together to cover-up a colleague's crimes. That's precisely what happened in the case of clerical abuse. Imagine we were to find out that a cabal of Lawyers had used their professional positions to help a colleague who had abused children. It would be the biggest scandal imaginable. In the case of the church, the problem was institutionalised, and so the institution is open to fair criticism. It's like saying the RUC isn't the problem, it's the few sectarian rotten apples. It's an argument that misses the point by a very wide margin.

    As for the "deafening silence" you mention, I find this a very distasteful comment as it implies society doesn't care about child abuse unless those damned evil priests are involved. This is an absurd allegation - I am certain we have all heard of dozens of cases of people from all walks of life prosecuted for abuse over the years. Twisting the facts to suit your argument on such a solemn issue is really a poor show.
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  4. #64
    myksav myksav is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by aggressivesecularist View Post
    No, but I couldn't be bothered to argue about this anymore.

    Okay, here chew on this for a bit:

    (a) Deny that there's a substantially higher level of paedophile activity by catholic male catholic religious than the general male population in (say) Ireland.
    (b) Deny that the scake of the orchestrated cover-up by the roman catholic church isn't extraordinary (perhaps unique), isn't bare-facedly dishonest and isn't more serious than collecting kiddie porn (serious and all as that is).

    Good night, I have more interesting things to do than argue the toss with people who've made up their minds a long time ago and won't let the truth get in the way.

    Why apologetics is still considered a respectable academic discipline is entirely beyond my powers of understanding.
    Good night, then.

    I recall mention that the percentages of clergy who committed abuse was actually smaller that that of the general population. Possibly by the group One-in-Four, or the like.
    By extension of the One-in-Four group, where it is stated that 25% of Irish people suffered child abuse (sexual), indicates that this crime is much greater in scope than previously admitted.
    Stop and think about that for a while. Either the % of non-clerical abusers is higher than clerical or those of the clerics who were abusing were very, very busy at the abuse.

    Andrew49 posted: "What would Jesus do ?"

    He stated that "it would be better that they (scandalisers of children) be cast into the sea with a millstone around their neck."
    Me, I'd shoot them in the head and burn the bodies.
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  5. #65
    tmesis2008 tmesis2008 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by toxic avenger View Post
    The link you provide confirms my case. Add up the individual cases in the Irish-dominated churches of America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Britain, and Ireland. Then compare with the others. Then consider the proportion of the population it involves relative to the others. Case closed.
    Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. You haven't provided a link with figures. You don't know who is involved in that abuse and what culture they emigrated from (i.e. it might be an American-Irish community church, but perpetrators could be from other cultures)

    Your logic is flawed anyway. We had a huge rate of immigration from this country and a very religious country, so it stands to reason that relative to other countries we would have a higher percentage of "Irish" community churches in other countries.

    Tell me this, what are the relative percentages of cultural influence in the Catholic church? If you don't know this now, and you haven't found this out already you are, I'm sorry to say, full of sh*t on this one, because to even propound the theory that the Irish culture somehow infected the church with its propensity for pedophilia you would have to look up the percentage of Irish influence in the church and correlate it with figures of abuse as a basic starting point.

    You see, I'm all for a good theory, but you are trying to extrapolate from too little data (in fact you have no solid facts or figures) and you're not considering other factors. Seriously, your theory here is very, very flawed and lacking in data.

    When questioned before, you said were not qualified but just asking "interesting questions". And now you say "case closed". I think you're looking to fit the facts to your conclusion.

    I have explained how I have come to my conclusion. I think there was a policy of systematic cover-up within the Catholic Church. This would explain how bishops and priests from all cultures covered up abuse. There is documentary evidence to support this. It had nothing to do with what culture the bishops were from as it is apparent that this sort of action happened all over the world. The constant factor is the Church and only the Church. The Church committed a large-scale, worldwide cover up of child abuse within its organization and it is, I repeat, appalling to claim otherwise without any evidence or knowledge of the facts of the matter.

    The church will never "get better" until this is accepted. You and your cod theory are a part of the problem.
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  6. #66
    Andrew49 Andrew49 is offline
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    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]toxic avenger wrote:
    Did you ever stop to think, when you look at the ethnic domination of the Catholic Church in the areas (Ireland, Britain, America, Australia) where child-abuse is prevalent, that the problem might be an Irish one rather than a Catholic one? That there might be something sick in our culture, not in that of the Church? There's an appalling vista for you...
    That's an interesting and important observation. I've re-read your posts and apologise sincerely for calling into question your honesty.

    I wrote the following a good few years ago when I observed the same 'Irish connection' as yourself. It mainly concerns the abuses that occurred in Irish Institutions managed by Irish Religious Orders. The [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]'Irish connection' appears also in Australian and Canadian Institutions.
    [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3] - - - - - - - - - - -
    As you look more and more into our times in those places the dimensions expand. What was so unique about Ireland that it could produce a child detention system so depraved and so exportable?

    Why is it that when you hear and read of abominations against children you discover an Irish religious order. Go through the archives of any newspaper in the English speaking world and this fact will hit you. Australia - New Zealand - Canada - USA - UK - and our own dear little island.

    In any enterprise that purports to enhance the common good there are checks and balances yet this was singularly lacking in our situations. It was as if they locked us up and threw away the key. Nominally there was oversight but it deliberately remained blind to our sufferings. It gave a blank card to these Religious Orders to exploit us to, and beyond, our limits. Is there something in the Irish psyche that tolerates what we know happened? There is nothing, absolutely nothing in the Irish psyche that tolerates abominations against the most helpless. What we had in Ireland was corrupt religious leaders blinded by their power and might. Their ambition was to gain in prestige and wealth for their organisation: the Roman Catholic Church is by far the largest landowner on this island, the wealthiest organisation on this island; so their ambition has been stunningly successful. With all such successful enterprises there is a dark side to this success - a price has been paid -

    * Children have died without any proper inquiry
    * Children have been raped
    * Children have been the victims of appalling and destructive violence
    * Children have been ripped from their kith and kin and isolated from society
    * Children have been used as forced labour
    * Children have been criminalised

    This price is still being paid by survivors

    Yet the organisations responsible for these crimes against children continue to demand respect from people. Indeed they act as if these crimes were very few and far between - they issue cynical apologies - they belittle advocates for survivors and victims - they secretly encourage apologists and revisionist to tell outrageous lies about Roman Catholic-managed child detention centres. These maddeningly criminal organisations may actually believe they are winning the battle against survivors and victims ........ But let me tell you something you black-hearted bastards:- you have already lost!

    - - - - - - -

    toxic avenger wrote:
    Add up the individual cases in the Irish-dominated churches of America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Britain, and Ireland. Then compare with the others. Then consider the proportion of the population it involves relative to the others. Case closed.
    I'm posting a list of names below.

    Father John Kwanga
    Fr Mundwiller
    FATHER BILL CRISTENSEN

    Abraham Anthony and Arulappan Savariahantham in india and Tilak Jayawardene in Sri Lanka

    Br Joe Bonett (malta)
    Fr Godwin Scerri (canada, australia, italy, malta)
    Fr Conrad Sciberras (malta)
    Fr Charles Pulis (italy, malta)

    Here is a list of Catholic Church leaders who have already been through the Australian courts in recent years for child abuse. The list is not complete as some offenders slip through the courts unnoticed.

    Jailed
    Fr Peter Comensoli, Wollongong, 18 mths;
    Fr Reginald Durham, Rockhampton, 7.5 yrs;
    Christian Brother Rex Elmer, Vic., 3 yrs 4 mths to 5 yrs;
    Ronald W. Hopkins, former trainee Christian Brother, SA, 2 yrs;
    Fr Leo Leunig, WA, 7 yrs;
    Fr David Rapson, Salesian priest, Vic, 2 yrs;
    Fr Gerald Ridsdale, Ballarat dioc., 15-18 yrs; Chr.
    Marist Brother Gregory Sutton, NSW, 13.5 yrs to 18 yrs ;
    Alan Swingler, ex-trainee Marist Brother , Vic, 5-7 yrs;
    Fr Leo Wright, Qld., 3 yrs (1995) &18 mths (1997).

    Other Jail Sentences
    Fr Raymond Deal, Melb., 4 mths jail, suspended;
    Marist Bro. John Dyson, Vic., 12 mths jail, served in community;
    Fr Anthony b, Melb., 6 mths jail, suspended;
    Fr Francis Klep, Salesian priest, Vic., 9 mths jail, served in community;
    former Christian Brother Terence Simpson, Brisbane, 2 yrs jail, suspended.

    Non-Custodial Sentences for Sexually Abusing Boys
    Christopher D'Astoli, ex-priesthood trainee, Vic.;
    Christian Brother William Hocking, NSW;
    Christian Brother William Marchant, WA;
    Fr. Victor Rubeo, Melb.; DeLaSalle Brother

    Non-Custodial Sentences for Sexually Abusing Females
    Marist Brother Francis Hesford, formerly Vic., now WA.

    Other Non-Custodial Sentences Include
    Fr Tabusz Swiatkowski (Society of Christ order), Brisbane 1994 (now at Mayfield West, Newcastle), soliciting a prostitute.

    Committed Suicide During Prosecution Process
    Fr Jack Gubbels, Melb. and Townsville;

    Other Deaths During Prosecution
    Fr Herbert Balding SJ;
    Fr Nazzareno Fasciale, Melb.

    - - - -
    [/SIZE][/FONT]While bishops in Germany and the United States have drafted recommendations for curbing sexual abuse, Polish church officials deny there is any urgency. "It is only a handful of cases. It's not a significant problem," said the Rev. Jozef Koch, a church spokesman in Warsaw. "The church needs to think about the poor and the unemployed. These are real issues."
    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]
    [/SIZE][/FONT]Source

    - - - - - - -

    This is an interesting read and the list of clergy is long.
    International Traffic in Catholic Priests Who Abuse
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  7. #67
    myksav myksav is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.R. Haldeman View Post
    Yes, but a whole bunch of Judges didn't get together to cover-up a colleague's crimes. That's precisely what happened in the case of clerical abuse. Imagine we were to find out that a cabal of Lawyers had used their professional positions to help a colleague who had abused children. It would be the biggest scandal imaginable. In the case of the church, the problem was institutionalised, and so the institution is open to fair criticism. It's like saying the RUC isn't the problem, it's the few sectarian rotten apples. It's an argument that misses the point by a very wide margin.

    As for the "deafening silence" you mention, I find this a very distasteful comment as it implies society doesn't care about child abuse unless those damned evil priests are involved. This is an absurd allegation - I am certain we have all heard of dozens of cases of people from all walks of life prosecuted for abuse over the years. Twisting the facts to suit your argument on such a solemn issue is really a poor show.
    I would like to have that certainty. I have listened for those cases closely and heard very little. Not none, but little compared to the stated level of abuse that has taken place according to One-in-Four.
    I listened closely, not because I was abused as a child, I wasn't, but because I hold that children are sacrosanct because they are totally dependent on adults for survival, and as the future of our species.
    In this, I have no tolerance. In this, I would approve wholeheartedly of the death penalty. And I would personally squeeze the trigger. I would feel no guilt or remorse.
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  8. #68
    tmesis2008 tmesis2008 is offline

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    myksav,

    You're not getting it. It's not about the scale of abuse, it's about the cover-up.

    Yes, abuse was covered-up within families, but you have to think, would the church, with its influence, and its now-known track record, have supported victims that came to them?

    There was surely a general silence on sexual matters, where sex (and by extension abuse) simply wasn't discussed. What did the influence of the church do in this regards?

    And, isn't it interesting that as the influence of the church has lessened and more liberal values have come to this Island that we are starting to face up to this awful history?

    You can't dissociate the Church from Irish culture when it suits you. They had a massive influence on this country and we have got to face up to what that really meant for people.

    I remember watch Michael D. Higgins on that RTE documentary "Seven AGes" and he said that the Catholic Church dominated Ireland on the 1950s was a grim place. Maybe it was far more grim than even he imagined.
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  9. #69
    tmesis2008 tmesis2008 is offline

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    toxic avenger and Andrew,

    You still haven't made the case really, but Andrew's post got me thinking.

    The question I think you might have asked Toxic is:

    Did the children who were mistreated in our society go on to become the child abusers within the church? That's an interesting question, but you need some facts and figures to support that idea.

    The next question though is about the cover-up. Could those children have become bishops who didn't understand what abuse does to people? Hardly. Were they so inured to abuse that covering-up didn't seem like a major crime?

    That would be a more interesting discussion for me, but again, you would need some facts and figures. You need to break down cases and see what percentage of priests and bishops who perpetrated and covered-up abuse came from this Island, and what sort of upbringing they had etc. Perhaps someone has already done that and there is good work to be referenced?

    Thanks for that post Andrew.
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  10. #70
    Andrew49 Andrew49 is offline
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    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3] Is there something in the Irish psyche that tolerates what we know happened? There is nothing, absolutely nothing in the Irish psyche that tolerates abominations against the most helpless. What we had in Ireland was corrupt religious leaders blinded by their power and might.

    And I think that is what happens in any organisation anywhere in the world that thinks it's untouchable and above the law.
    [/SIZE][/FONT]
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