Should Atheists become Missionaries?

[Roger]

[quote="mairteenpak"]

This issue will inevitably be referred to the EU Court.[/quote]

I will be surprised if it does. Education is not within the competence of the EU. There have been attempts to use its competence over employment law to undermine denominational schools but these attacks seem to have been beaten off.

The problem is that there is no option other than to use a Catholic School funded by the public purse. Catholic schools provide education for many more children than the number of children that profess Catholic Faith.

Are Catholic schools the only schools funded in part by the public purse? How would Church of Ireland people feel about losing their schools? Has any spokesperson for that church expressed an opinion on that matter? Or is it only Catholics who are being targeted?

I see no advantages in requiring all children to be educated to-gether - and, in a society with tribal tensions, plenty of advantages in separate education. Integrated education, if it happens, let it happen. Do not try to impose it.

Nevertheless, you do have a good point. People, who are not practising Catholics, should not have to use Catholic schools - and the Catholic church should not have to cater for such people. I hope you will give all the assistance you can to the Educate To-gether movement.

I do not want to interfere or to be seen to interfere in the internal politics of the ROI. Nevertheless, you and like minded souls, might look at the example of the Netherlands. In that country there are Calvinist schools which receive 100% State funding, Catholic schools which also receive 100% State funding and State secular schools also supported 100% by the State. Everyone has free choice, nobody is coerced, nobody is threatened, nobody is financially penalised because of his religion or lack of religion. If you start campaigning for such a system in ROI, you might soon have the Catholics, Protestants and Muslims battling alongside you. Your struggle would also be their struggle - but for different reasons. Why does your attempt to get secular education have to threaten Catholics?

[mairteenpak]

Human rights is an area where the EU Court has jurisdiction

[Roger]

[quote="mairteenpak"]Human rights is an area where the EU Court has jurisdiction[/quote]

Not true. The EU court's proper name is the European Court of Justice. It sits in Luxenburg. It has no jurisdiction over human rights although, when one is taking a case against one of the institutuons of the EU - usually the Commission -, one can plead a breach of human rights - usually on the grounds of proportionality.

I suspect that you have in mind the European Court of Human Rights. It sits in Strasbourg. I would be very surprised if it gives a ruling that a Jew is obliged to allow his child to be taught by a Nazi, or that a Muslim is obliged to allow his child to be taught by a Jew or vice versa. One person's human rights do not exist in isolation from another person's human rights.

Taking the Irish government to court for its failure to provide secular education might be a more fruitful course of action. I am not at all sure.

[mairteenpak]

I never mentioned Jews or Muslims

We will have to get the treaty passed first though

[coc]

... I would say that it was specifically the Roman Catholic Church that went about torturing and executing people for heresies. ...

Well, that's not true for starters. Calvin condoned torture and murder of people for heresy/witchcraft, as did major religious denominations of the day, reformed or otherwise. The common factor is this bloodlust was christianity or at least a society steeped in a christian culture.

[mairteenpak]

God holds the descendants of sinners accountable for the sins of our forefathers.

[Roger]

[quote="mairteenpak"]I never mentioned Jews or Muslims

We will have to get the treaty passed first though

Are you saying that the Lisbon treaty challenges the right of denominational schools to exist? Please provide detail.

[Tmesis]

immoral notions come from men and not an ideal.

All morality and immorality comes from men, unless you contend that God has communicated with people at some stage, and, of course, that leaves your argument with many problems if you claim such a thing.

I would say that it was specifically the Roman Catholic Church that went about torturing and executing people for heresies. One Christian insitution isn't Christianity.

Oh dear, you want us to give credit to Christianity in the guise of the Catholic Church for the morality of Ireland but not discredit Christianity in the guise of the Catholic Church for the immorality of the Inquisition. I don't think so. If you're going to claim that the R.C. church is a bastion of Christian morality you can't then deny them when it doesn't suit and retain credibility in a debate.

And as for slavery, it was Christian groups who were the leading light in abolishing slavery in the western world. Even later it was deeply Christian (along with Jewish) groups and people who were active in civil rights movements all over the United States and Europe.

As I said to someone else. Are abolition and civil rights innate in Christianity? If so, why did it take over 1500 years for this to become apparent? Also, it is true that some Christians were at the forefront of abolition and civil rights but as there isn't unequivocal condemnation of slavery and praise of civil rights inherent in Christianity then it says nothing about the morality of Christianity in this regard. For example, quite a few marxists were at the forefront of the MLK's fight for civil rights - do you think this says anything about the innate morality of Marxism?

I have no problem with someone wishing for a more secularised society but you don't seem to be willing to give credit to the whole Christian peoples, past and present, where it's well due.

I will give credit to people for their good actions but I don't put this down to their Christianity. A good person will find goodness and perform good deeds from Christianity and a barbaric person can equally find justification for immoral deeds in Christianity. Examine the sentence and you'll see that Christianity is superfluous. The problem comes when Christianity makes people who believe they are doing good do evil things and that is why I think that we are better off without religion.