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  1. #111
    Fun with Irish Fun with Irish is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barroso View Post

    If local government in the Gaeltacht was provided in Irish, through Údarás na Gaeltachta rather than through the local County council, it would make a real difference to life in the Gaeltacht......
    What difference would it make?
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  2. #112
    Darren J. Prior Darren J. Prior is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fun with Irish View Post
    No mind reading is needed: the Irish people speak English as their vernacular
    Around 30,000 people (maybe many more) speak Irish fluently and more speak it well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fun with Irish View Post
    And no mind reading is needed to observe the transition from Irish to English of the residents of the tiny
    residual areas where Irish is still sometimes used.
    And this is how you would describe our Gaeltacht areas- where Irish is "sometimes used"? Irish is spoken by thousands of people every day there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fun with Irish View Post
    The new Gaeltacht Education plan is a serious effort by the state officials to halt the transition of
    those tiny communities from Irish to English. The officials will succeed for a time in having their way
    with the schoolchildren (always the meat inthe sandwich) and will proclaim that as a success.
    How dramatic of you. The communities support the plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fun with Irish View Post
    But they will not block the historical choice of language the Irish people, or that particular section of them.
    It's obvious what side you are on. A no hoper and worse than that a sadist who gets sexual delight out of plans failing in relation to the Irish language and stirring up negativity to help them fail.

    They might fail nobody knows what the results will be, although you think you do, but I would say that there is a good chance that they will succeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fun with Irish View Post
    So: who is benefiting from the charade?
    There is no charade, at least not in terms of the mad ideas you have in your head.
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  3. #113
    McTell McTell is offline
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    Some of you may have the wrong idea.

    The promotion of Irish in the wesht was/is all about justifying grants to a poor area - also known as buying votes.

    So mayo gets €940 per person and meath gets €537 pp.

    Do you know how Mayo spends your money?

    Where does the money go inMeath?


    It's called "local government finance", but it's buying votes. Language spending adds a bit more on top.
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  4. #114
    Darren J. Prior Darren J. Prior is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by McTell View Post
    Some of you may have the wrong idea.

    The promotion of Irish in the wesht was/is all about justifying grants to a poor area - also known as buying votes.

    So mayo gets €940 per person and meath gets €537 pp
    .

    Do you know how Mayo spends your money?

    Where does the money go inMeath?


    It's called "local government finance", but it's buying votes. Language spending adds a bit more on top.
    Those figures are the total amount in funding for those councils broken down on an individual level not grants for the Irish language. The deontas for raising your family through Irish is gone now a few years.
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  5. #115
    Barroso Barroso is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fun with Irish View Post
    What difference would it make?
    Being able to go into an office, or telephone or write to an office; and know that you will be dealt with without question or delay in your own language makes your language useful for many everyday purposes.
    It also means that your vocabulary improves - you will use the relevant words because they are on the form or in the brochure or on the website. This enriches your vocabulary.
    What happens at present is that we are almost certain that the official dealing with us does not speak Irish, so we are obliged to use his/her language, learn new terminology in English to deal with him/her, and this improves our grasp of English, relatively dis-improves our grasp of Irish and decreases the usefulness of the Irish language.

    Essentially, what is involved here is that the State is forcing us to use English, which makes a complete mockery of our rights as Irish-speaking citizens.

    If you had ever lived through another language, this would be self-evident to you.
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  6. #116
    Cai Cai is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barroso View Post
    Being able to go into an office, or telephone or write to an office; and know that you will be dealt with without question or delay in your own language makes your language useful for many everyday purposes.
    It also means that your vocabulary improves - you will use the relevant words because they are on the form or in the brochure or on the website. This enriches your vocabulary.
    What happens at present is that we are almost certain that the official dealing with us does not speak Irish, so we are obliged to use his/her language, learn new terminology in English to deal with him/her, and this improves our grasp of English, relatively dis-improves our grasp of Irish and decreases the usefulness of the Irish language.

    Essentially, what is involved here is that the State is forcing us to use English, which makes a complete mockery of our rights as Irish-speaking citizens.

    If you had ever lived through another language, this would be self-evident to you.
    There is something as well & it's arguably more important.

    Welsh does well where it's got high social status & less well when it's associated with poverty. Gwynedd Council works through the medium of Welsh & it as a result it's developed a technical, professional idiom. It's associated with professionalism. Many people learn it because they aspire to improve themselves.

    Large numbers of afluent, professional Welsh speakers live in Cardiff - & a hell of a lot of monoglot English speakers send their children to Welsh medium schools in the city.
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  7. #117
    Barroso Barroso is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cai View Post
    There is something as well & it's arguably more important.

    Welsh does well where it's got high social status & less well when it's associated with poverty. Gwynedd Council works through the medium of Welsh & it as a result it's developed a technical, professional idiom. It's associated with professionalism. Many people learn it because they aspire to improve themselves.

    Large numbers of afluent, professional Welsh speakers live in Cardiff - & a hell of a lot of monoglot English speakers send their children to Welsh medium schools in the city.
    Well, yes, of course. But status follows from usefulness.
    This would be a logical outcome of what I suggested above - but the people who run Ireland do not want any of this.

    So we get a degree of support for the language (some schooling at primary and secondary levels, some legal supports, some radio and television), but there is a process of attrition, with constant language loss and language impoverishment where it matters, while the powers that be can point to these "prestige" developments to "prove" state support for the language.
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  8. #118
    Fun with Irish Fun with Irish is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barroso View Post
    Being able to go into an office, or telephone or write to an office; and know that you will be dealt with without question or delay in your own language makes your language useful for many everyday purposes. It also means that your vocabulary improves - you will use the relevant words because they are on the form or in the brochure or on the website. This enriches your vocabulary...............
    OK.

    When you said that local government would be better in Galway if conducted through Irish I thought you meant that the planning process would be better, or that secondary roads would get more repairs or that flood hazards would be eliminated or things to do with housing. But I see that you just meant that there would be more use of Irish.

    Obviously, you're right about that.
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  9. #119
    Fun with Irish Fun with Irish is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darren J. Prior View Post

    It's obvious what side you are on. A no hoper and worse than that a sadist who gets sexual delight out of plans failing in relation to the Irish language and stirring up negativity to help them fail.
    I think I get your point.

    But actually, my interest is in the political phenomenon - the dynamics of state authorities attempting to bring about
    language change in a population. I don't know of any other case that matches the Irish one.

    Although it is possible to imagine one. For example, if the Australian Government had decided in 1920 that one of the aboriginal languages should be made the First Official Language of the state and initiated state action to make that a reality. How would such a project unfold? Would the Australian Government have succeeded by now? How would it compare with the Irish experience?
    Last edited by Fun with Irish; 4th January 2018 at 01:02 PM.
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  10. #120
    Fun with Irish Fun with Irish is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darren J. Prior View Post

    And this is how you would describe our Gaeltacht areas- where Irish is "sometimes used"? Irish is spoken by thousands of people every day there.
    It is not how I describe it. It is how the Language Planning Website reports it.

    Galway City - population 79,934 - percentage daily users of Irish over 3 yrs old - 2.9%; An tEachréidh: (Carnmore Annaghdown) pop 7,999 daily users 3.04%; Moycullen - 6.9%; Conamara Lár - population 2,935 - daily users over 3yrs - 56.00%; Ceanntar na nOilean - pop 2,118 - daily users 71.6%; Toormakeady - daily users - 13.8%;

    And the linguistics experts describe the language in use as a reduced form of Irish which, of course, is the reason why the Minister for the Gaeltacht has to hire travelling teachers to go around teaching native speakers how to be native speakers.

    It is beyond parody.

    But one understands the Minister's concern. After all, no Gaeltacht = no Minister for the Gaeltacht.
    Last edited by Fun with Irish; 4th January 2018 at 12:51 PM.
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