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  1. #71
    Ratio Et Fides Ratio Et Fides is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by roc_ View Post
    I could go on. - But I suppose what is really telling is that someone like you, and Ratio, two posters most reputed among normal, sane, moderate members on this forum, for overt antisemitism on this forum (respectively two different forms of it), are the ones most vocal here about an actual Israeli Jew trying to articulate what it is that they experience as antisemitism in the world today.
    The person she is introducing there and lavishing his book with praise has stated that he believes that if any non-Jew would protest the actual genocide of the Palestinian people than they would be being anti-Semitic. She herself has labelled those who oppose the Settlement building program on the part of the Zionist government as being anti-Semitic. People can have a lot of subjective feelings but that doesn't mean that they are rational, based on any real objectivity or not dangerous. Let us turn it around- should the subjective feelings of an unemployed German veteran supporter of the NSDAP in 1929 against the Jews be accorded similar validity because of their strength? I don't think so. Just because they experience something as anti-Semitism does not necessarily make up and validated subjective feelings on their own grounds is an extremely dangerous game which opens up the way for all sorts of dark irrationality to stream through.

    "... But what if you have a lunatic asylum for an audience or a crowd in a collective frenzy? There is not much difference between them because the madman and the mob are both moved by impersonal, overwhelming forces..."

    "... Let these harmless creatures form a mass, and there emerges a raging monster; and each individual is only one tiny cell in the monster’s body, so that for better or worse he must accompany it on its bloody rampages and even assist it to the utmost..."

    C.G. Jung.
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  2. #72
    redhead redhead is offline
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    Something is wrong on the internet? No s**t, Sherlock.
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  3. #73
    Stentor Stentor is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by roc_ View Post
    I came across a good article on this.

    https://medium.com/@jamesbridle/some...t-c39c471271d2

    This particular article particularly focuses on content aimed at young children. At least it uses this case to try and communicate something.

    Then towards the end of the article the writer says:

    "... What concerns me is not just the violence being done to children here, although that concerns me deeply. What concerns me is that this is just one aspect of a kind of infrastructural violence being done to all of us, all of the time, and we’re still struggling to find a way to even talk about it, to describe its mechanisms and its actions and its effects..."

    So this thread, perhaps, might look at the part I bolded above. - What are these "mechanisms, actions and effects"? Can we try and articulate and expound on them??

    To get the thread going, perhaps I might start with my own observation of how so called "opinion" has become so massively polarised on the internet. - I ask myself why is this - and it seems to me that at the nub of it is that many people easily become attached to a mental image or "pseudo-environment" of events they have not experienced... and then they proceed to attach emotions to those pseudo environment mental images.

    Invariably, this mental image is simplistic, and does not account for the real complexity - such as history, context, intents and motives involved, actual multi-fold causes and effects, and so on - that all go to make up the actual reality underlying their mental image.

    Of course their mental image is only a vague, distorted reflection of the reality - but in most cases they seem to be unaware of this.

    The thing is though, with that mental image then often comes a base sentimentality (I mean by sentimentality the ostentatious parading of excessive and spurious emotion.). And on this I have come to quite agree with the brilliant black social critic James Baldwin who once said, "... The wet eyes of the sentimentalist betray his aversion to experience, his fear of life, his arid heart; and it is always, therefore, the signal of secret and violent inhumanity, the mark of cruelty...”.

    Anyway, that is just one thing. There's more going on. No doubt the rise again of actual state propaganda, utilising all the old techniques is a driver. But there are other important drivers. Can we try and talk about it? As the writer of the above article said, "we’re still struggling to find a way to even talk about it...". So anyone want to have a try on this thread?
    The vast majority claim some religion as a 'faith'.

    Look there to understand that these people (the majority) are pre-programmed drone-plebs.

    They do not like to think. They like to obey and consume. The conversation you wish to see begun will never happen
    except on the far fringes. It's really a pointless conversation in terms of changing anything. Mental masturbation.
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  4. #74
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratio Et Fides View Post
    The person she is introducing there and lavishing his book with praise has stated that he believes that if any non-Jew would protest the actual genocide of the Palestinian people than they would be being anti-Semitic.
    Please cite them. Reference the context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratio Et Fides View Post
    She herself has labelled those who oppose the Settlement building program on the part of the Zionist government as being anti-Semitic.
    Please cite them. Reference the context...

    ... Look, I keep asking you for this. But you much prefer to recast the actual message of any "evil Zionist" so as to depict them in the worst light you can possibly conceive of in your own warped mind. Your priority is only to widely disperse your obsessive insinuations and libels. You have no heed to what they are trying to say, only to the words you want to put in their mouths, to better provoke hatred and prejudice against their group. In this you are so transparent and so superficial.

    Look, I am not familiar with this book (I doubt you are either). But it would appear that the message in it that Caroline Glick is affirming is along the lines of the following (from a review):

    "... It beautifully deconstructs the current culture of the Israel-hating crowd, from within and without Israel...Every page has examples of malicious Europeans, lying Arabs and clueless (or self-hating) Israeli Jews...The entire situation is quite literally theater, where everyone plays their parts and everyone denies the obvious - because the truth would destroy the illusions that so many people have invested their lives in. Tenenbom's genius is to expose the obvious to the players themselves, who react with anger or denial. Their world is surrounded with like-minded unthinking drones and they cannot abide a truth-teller, often reacting by accusing Tuvia of being a Jew..."

    Now, I will have to read it. Because I will tell you one thing. I see the above on here everyday! If Tuvia Tenenbom came to visit this forum, he would find the exact same thing he has found elsewhere! In fact, in a way I have been rather exactly like Tuvia, in my travels across this Irish forum - in that most of the "contributors" I have "interviewed" about Israel on here either know almost nothing about what they are saying, or are consciously spreading a vicious, false narrative about Israel and Israelis.

    Reading that review it would seem that what I have indubitably found on here is the exact same as what he found elsewhere! I would like to see him interview you and your crony Rasherhash.
    Last edited by roc_; 20th November 2017 at 05:39 PM.
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  5. #75
    Ratio Et Fides Ratio Et Fides is offline

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    "More piercing to me is the pain of watching a tradition, my Judaism, to which I have dedicated my life, disintegrating before my eyes. It has been said by many Christians that Christianity died at Auschwitz, Treblinka, and Sobibor. I fear, G-d forbid, that my Judaism may be dying at Nablus, Deheishe, Betein , and El-Khalil."-Daniel Boyarin.

    Of course Daniel Boyarin is one of the most important Jewish thinkers and scholars alive today but roc_ prefers to focus on the hate-filled paranoid extremists. It is also noticeable that he always refuses to answer the question as to who is his favourite Prophet in the Tanach.
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  6. #76
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratio Et Fides View Post
    "More piercing to me is the pain of watching a tradition, my Judaism, to which I have dedicated my life, disintegrating before my eyes. It has been said by many Christians that Christianity died at Auschwitz, Treblinka, and Sobibor. I fear, G-d forbid, that my Judaism may be dying at Nablus, Deheishe, Betein , and El-Khalil."-Daniel Boyarin.

    Of course Daniel Boyarin is one of the most important Jewish thinkers and scholars alive today but roc_ prefers to focus on the hate-filled paranoid extremists. It is also noticeable that he always refuses to answer the question as to who is his favourite Prophet in the Tanach.
    Oh look, you have found another anti-Zionist Jew. A professor no less (albeit from the University of California at Berkeley).

    "One of the most important Jewish thinkers and scholars alive today" - yes, for those who wish with all their heart for the end of the Jewish state, no doubt.

    But for the vast majority of Jews? Well he may be an important voice in US Jewish democracy with respect to how they consider Israel. - Because he expresses one side of the debate, a side that has very few advocates, as there are not many Jews who think Israel should not exist, and should never have come into existence. - It is important that all sides get aired.

    But that is something different from how antisemites like you find him useful to you. He is "important" to you for much different reasons.

    Moving on, again, you have brought no citation or corroboration to back up your raving about "hate-filled paranoid extremists". (Even if you did manage to corroborate it, it would certainly be another case of the pot calling the kettle black). And that is before we get to your next imputation that I prefer to focus on these type of views, presumably to the exclusion of others.

    - Because actually, that is not true either. I don't focus solely on them. But in the interests of fairness, and democracy, their views do need to be brought to the abominably one-sided "debates" about Jewish issues, that this forum and others like politicalirish.com positively teem with.

    Also acknowledging that no one familiar with the message of these two Jews accept for one second your raving that the likes of Caroline Glick or Rabbi Sacks are "hate-filled". - But they sure do realise that their message is about the reality of antisemitism for Jews, its sources, and its implications. - They are certainly not being paranoid. - I am intelligent enough, and I certainly can see what they're pointing to. - I can see that what they are saying has a heck of a lot of substance behind it.

    But people like you don't like your antisemitism deconstructed, and your so righteous "logic" taken apart so decisively. So you rave against them. It's really not surprising.

    As to "who is my favorite prophet", I've told you a million times before I am not Jewish, and I'll also say here that I loathe your antisemitic goading as if I am, trying to pretend that my views must be driven by negative, inhumane phrases that you've managed to ferret out in one or other of the Jewish holy books. You are so transparent.
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