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  1. #21
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windowshopper View Post
    One cannot seperate Zionism from Judaism, but I think one can seperate Judaism from Zionism.

    As a secularist one of the reasons why I am leery of Zionism is that it privieges one religion over others, and that's one of the resons why I find the idea of a Jewish State as opposed to an Israeli state hard to swallow: one can not become an Muslim Jew but one might become an Israeli Muslim. Quite a lot of nations have a common etthnicity or religious history but I think now adays it is better to base 'nationness' on common citizenship.

    While I understand of why Jewish state and a law of return came about aganist the background of deep antisemiticism and then the Holocaust. I cannot think that a state cannot privilege one grouping inter alia another as Israel does by saying a Jew who's direct ancestors have not been threre for a millenia have more right than the grandson of a Palestinian refugee.

    Also as a secularist I think defining citizenship under an ethno religious identity is dangerous as it gives a big stick to the more strongly religous and priests to force their views on everyone else by claiming to be most authentic realizations of the nation. This played a role in the bishop's hold here as they tried to define Irishness as synomous with Catholicism. I fear something like this is happening in Israel with the ecilpse of the the laudable labour tradition with a coailition in which relgious conservatives are a central pillar.
    I don't have a problem with a Jewish state in the sense that now that Israel exists, and has been given legitimacy by the UN, I think they are fully entitled to have their own immigration policy and if they want to keep the country majority Jewish by restricting immigration largely to Jews, I don't have a problem with that.

    What I have a problem with in the article in the OP is the notion that you have to have supported the setting up of the state of Israel in the first place, i.e. supported the claims of the Jews over the Muslims, or else you are anti-semitic. That is fairly outrageous.
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  2. #22
    eoghanacht eoghanacht is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by parentheses View Post
    Kevin Myers was pro-Zionist.

    He must be wondering where he went wrong
    He slagged off two "sacred cows".
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  3. #23
    Windowshopper Windowshopper is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wascurito View Post
    I do worry that Israel is moving towards an inwardly-looking right-wing nationalism although, to be honest, any country subjected to such threats and abuse would probably do likewise. As things stand, it's still far more tolerant of minority religions than any other country in the region.

    If only Western leftists would concern themselves as much with the real hardline theocracies (all Islamic) in that region rather than continually bashing Israel.

    Re the bit in bold, most Israeli Jews are descended from Mizrachim; i.e. descended from those who had to flee other Middle Eastern countries.
    Re. the Mizrahis I am aware that a big proportion of Jews came from Arab countries, and that they're experience of displayment is usually ignored as it complicates some peoples narratives.

    Re Western leftists yes some accusations of hypocrisy has some validity in some cases but Israel is a western democracy and we should expect better behaviour from them because of that.
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  4. #24
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dame_Enda View Post
    Before the Holocaust probably a majority of American Jews were anti Zionist.
    A. Do you have evidence to support that.

    B. Assuming it's a true statement, what on earth might have occurred to convince them finally to change their mind!
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  5. #25
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  6. #26
    Strawberry Strawberry is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by roc_ View Post
    Indeed. But what are the approximate figures?

    If we assume that tomorrow's antisemitism will indeed be based on the argument that any Jew who supports an evil, illegitimate, child-murdering state, may be legitimately despised, how many Jews precisely would escape the net of such a judgement?

    Not that many I suggest - https://www.commentarymagazine.com/c...re-a-minority/




    Good case in point. Those black-garbed Jews who appear in support of anti-Israel and even anti-Semitic events are known as “Neturei Karta.

    For all their online ubiquity, they are in fact only a a miniscule group on the farthest fringes of Judaism.

    No doubt they are extremely popular in certain circles due to their advocating the “dismantling” of the State of Israel (well until their messiah comes), and due to their long record of extremist statements and support for anti-Semites and Islamic extremists.

    But they are very far from representative.
    Its funny watching you criticise them. Like watching a dog growl furiously at his own reflection in a puddle.
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  7. #27
    Windowshopper Windowshopper is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    I don't have a problem with a Jewish state in the sense that now that Israel exists, and has been given legitimacy by the UN, I think they are fully entitled to have their own immigration policy and if they want to keep the country majority Jewish by restricting immigration largely to Jews, I don't have a problem with that.

    What I have a problem with in the article in the OP is the notion that you have to have supported the setting up of the state of Israel in the first place, i.e. supported the claims of the Jews over the Muslims, or else you are anti-semitic. That is fairly outrageous.
    It strikes me as being fundamentally unfair in a situation where one ethno-releigous group is favoured over the others especially when within the state there exists a ethnic-religous group with as much history in the land who does not get the same treatment.

    Whatever the rights or wrongs of doing that in a fairly monocultural state. I think you are on very shakey ground doing that in multi-ethnic one which has a settlement-indigenous dynamic.

    If a law was passed tomorrow saying that the British dispora could settle with full rights in NI but people of Irish descent could not even when their descendants left at closer period of time it would be very unfair.
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  8. #28
    Ratio Et Fides Ratio Et Fides is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windowshopper View Post
    Re. the Mizrahis I am aware that a big proportion of Jews came from Arab countries, and that they're experience of displayment is usually ignored as it complicates some peoples narratives.

    Re Western leftists yes some accusations of hypocrisy has some validity in some cases but Israel is a western democracy and we should expect better behaviour from them because of that.
    Mizrachi Jews often face horrific discrimination in the Zionist colonial project. You know that the Ashkenazim stripped them naked and hosed them with disinfectant and other stuff when they got off the planes? They were often simple country people who were easily conned by the Zionists. For all the evil that Shas can come out with I do personally at least feel a lot of empathy with them.
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  9. #29
    paddycomeback paddycomeback is offline

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    I was reading during the Myers affair Jewish people make up 0.2% of the world population. 1 in every 514 people.
    This is getting tired now. Enough, already!
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  10. #30
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windowshopper View Post
    It strikes me as being fundamentally unfair in a situation where one ethno-releigous group is favoured over the others especially when within the state there exists a ethnic-religous group with as much history in the land who does not get the same treatment.

    Whatever the rights or wrongs of doing that in a fairly monocultural state. I think you are on very shakey ground doing that in multi-ethnic one which has a settlement-indigenous dynamic.

    If a law was passed tomorrow saying that the British dispora could settle with full rights in NI but people of Irish descent could not even when their descendants left at closer period of time it would be very unfair.
    I would not agree with any discrimination within the state of Israel - each citizen should have equal rights. The Israelis would claim that their Muslim citizens have equal rights, whether that is true or not I don't know. But I do think they have the right to control their immigration and keep it majority Jewish. Let's be real here, that was the whole point of the thing - they don't want to live in a Muslim majority state, and I don't blame them, I wouldn't want to either.
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