Register to Comment
Page 2 of 18 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 171
Like Tree51Likes
  1. #11
    parentheses parentheses is offline
    parentheses's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    11,721

    Kevin Myers was pro-Zionist.

    He must be wondering where he went wrong
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  2. #12
    Levellers Levellers is offline

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    11,403

    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  3. #13
    Windowshopper Windowshopper is offline
    Windowshopper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    8,317

    One cannot separate Zionism from Judaism, but I think one can separate Judaism from Zionism.

    As a secularist one of the reasons why I am leery of Zionism is that it privileges one religion over others, and that's one of the resons why I find the idea of a Jewish State as opposed to an Israeli state hard to swallow: one cannot become an Muslim Jew but one might become an Israeli Muslim. Quite a lot of nations have a common ethnicity or religious history but I think nowadays it is better to base 'nationness' on common citizenship.

    While I understand of why Jewish state and a law of return came about against the background of deep anti-Semitism and then the Holocaust. I think that a state should privilege one grouping inter alia another as Israel does by saying a Jew whose direct ancestors have not been there for a millenia have more right than the grandson of a Palestinian refugee.

    Also as a secularist I think defining citizenship under an ethno religious identity is dangerous as it gives a big stick to the more strongly religous and priests to force their views on everyone else by claiming to be most authentic realizations of the nation. This played a role in the bishop's hold here as they tried to define Irishness as synomous with Catholicism. I fear something like this is happening in Israel with the eclipse of the the laudable labour tradition by a coailition in which relgious conservatives are a central pillar.
    Last edited by Windowshopper; 6th August 2017 at 10:29 PM.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  4. #14
    Ratio Et Fides Ratio Et Fides is offline
    Ratio Et Fides's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    23,138

    Quote Originally Posted by Windowshopper View Post
    One cannot seperate Zionism from Judaism, but I think one can seperate Judaism from Zionism. .
    I thanked the post for that line. Essentially it is true and could make for an interesting discussion.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  5. #15
    former wesleyan former wesleyan is offline
    former wesleyan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    24,787




    Greet the banks of the Jordan
    and Zion's toppled towers...
    Oh, my country, so beautiful and lost!
    Oh, remembrance, so dear and so fatal!
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  6. #16
    wombat wombat is offline
    wombat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    34,951

    Quote Originally Posted by Clanrickard View Post
    The OP is wrong. Judaism is a religion and Zionism is political. Some Jews are not Zionists. You can also be non-Jewish and a Zionist.
    That's a fair comment but I have a question for non Zionist Jews - how safe would you feel from anti Jewish persecution if you did not know that the Zionists will protect you?
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  7. #17
    Wascurito Wascurito is online now
    Wascurito's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    2,104

    Quote Originally Posted by Windowshopper View Post
    One cannot seperate Zionism from Judaism, but I think one can seperate Judaism from Zionism.

    As a secularist one of the reasons why I am leery of Zionism is that it privieges one religion over others, and that's one of the resons why I find the idea of a Jewish State as opposed to an Israeli state hard to swallow: one can not become an Muslim Jew but one might become an Israeli Muslim. Quite a lot of nations have a common etthnicity or religious history but I think now adays it is better to base 'nationness' on common citizenship.

    While I understand of why Jewish state and a law of return came about aganist the background of deep antisemiticism and then the Holocaust. I cannot think that a state cannot privilege one grouping inter alia another as Israel does by saying a Jew who's direct ancestors have not been threre for a millenia have more right than the grandson of a Palestinian refugee.

    Also as a secularist I think defining citizenship under an ethno religious identity is dangerous as it gives a big stick to the more strongly religous and priests to force their views on everyone else by claiming to be most authentic realizations of the nation. This played a role in the bishop's hold here as they tried to define Irishness as synomous with Catholicism. I fear something like this is happening in Israel with the ecilpse of the the laudable labour tradition with a coailition in which relgious conservatives are a central pillar.
    I do worry that Israel is moving towards an inwardly-looking right-wing nationalism although, to be honest, any country subjected to such threats and abuse would probably do likewise. As things stand, it's still far more tolerant of minority religions than any other country in the region.

    If only Western leftists would concern themselves as much with the real hardline theocracies (all Islamic) in that region rather than continually bashing Israel.

    Re the bit in bold, most Israeli Jews are descended from Mizrachim; i.e. descended from those who had to flee other Middle Eastern countries.
    Last edited by Wascurito; 6th August 2017 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Typo....meh.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  8. #18
    roc_ roc_ is offline
    roc_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    5,359

    Quote Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
    Judaism is a religion, Zionism is a political movement, two separate entities, not all Jews are Zionist and indeed not all Zionist are Jews.
    Indeed. But what are the approximate figures?

    If we assume that tomorrow's antisemitism will indeed be based on the argument that any Jew who supports an evil, illegitimate, child-murdering state, may be legitimately despised, how many Jews precisely would escape the net of such a judgement?

    Not that many I suggest - https://www.commentarymagazine.com/c...re-a-minority/


    Quote Originally Posted by Levellers View Post
    Good case in point. Those black-garbed Jews who appear in support of anti-Israel and even anti-Semitic events are known as “Neturei Karta.

    For all their online ubiquity, they are in fact only a a miniscule group on the farthest fringes of Judaism.

    No doubt they are extremely popular in certain circles due to their advocating the “dismantling” of the State of Israel (well until their messiah comes), and due to their long record of extremist statements and support for anti-Semites and Islamic extremists.

    But they are very far from representative.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  9. #19
    Wascurito Wascurito is online now
    Wascurito's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    2,104

    Quote Originally Posted by roc_ View Post
    Good case in point. Those black-garbed Jews who appear in support of anti-Israel and even anti-Semitic events are known as “Neturei Karta.

    For all their online ubiquity, they are in fact only a a miniscule group on the farthest fringes of Judaism.

    No doubt they are extremely popular in certain circles due to their advocating the “dismantling” of the State of Israel (well until their messiah comes), and due to their long record of extremist statements and support for anti-Semites and Islamic extremists.

    But they are very far from representative.
    They are happy to live in Israel and take advantage of the freedoms and quality of life in Israel, freedoms and qualities that no other country in the region comes close to offering. And they're tolerated and allowed to propagate their beliefs.

    I wonder how would a similar group in the USA, so loudly opposed to the existence of the USA, would fare?
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  10. #20
    Dame_Enda Dame_Enda is offline
    Dame_Enda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    34,215

    Not true. Before the Holocaust probably a majority of American Jews were anti Zionist.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

Page 2 of 18 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Sign in to CommentRegister to Comment