Sporting Equality?

[Super Lily]

In recent times, there have been two (in boxing and golf) high profile and very different cases of women attempting to end the gender apartheid in sport, and compete on the same playing field as men. In my own opinion these attempts devalue female sport at the top level, as it deprives female sport of their top competitiors, and clearly exposes a real divide in ability between male and female athletes.

What I am wondering, is what are people's general reaction to women competing in men's events (and presumably vice-versa)? Should it be a case of whoever is good enough should be allowed to compete, or should we continue with gender apartheid? Should gender equaility in sport be only something for elite levels in sport, or should the state take a role in removing gender classifications in juvenile sporting events in Ireland?

[owenfeehan]

I think there should be no barrier preventing women from competing at the highest-level in various sports, be it a rules-barrier or a social-stigma barrier. I have no problem with events of a *positive discrimination* variety being based upon gender so as to increase minority participation. However, the highest-level of achivement shouldn't ever be restricted to any one particular gender.

This should not be at the expense of the recognition of the biological and physical differences which orient genders in different manners. The real gender apartheid is the degree to which male-streams of sports are assigned more status by society. We focus ridicolously on absolute successes rather than relative successes.

What particularly bugs me is gender apartheid in non-physical sports, where success is determined exclusively by skill (snooker, darts etc.). There is no reason beyond bigoted tradition to sustain these divisions.

I play a lot of the card-game bridge, and it shames me that segregation of males and females continues. It's a card game for the love of god! I remember a few years ago, a group (involving 3 guys and 1 girl) from my college entered a bridge competition and won. Afterwards, an elder lady approached the female member of our team, congratulated her on her success, but asked her "why she was playing on a team with males?". Imagine that! In Galway City in 2003!

[Super Lily]

What particularly bugs me is gender apartheid in non-physical sports, where success is determined exclusively by skill (snooker, darts etc.). There is no reason beyond bigoted tradition to sustain these divisions.

As far as I am aware, women can compete professionally in those games, the only apartheid being the creation of women only tournaments.

[owenfeehan]

As far as I am aware, women can compete professionally in those games, the only apartheid being the creation of women only tournaments.

I'm glad if that's the case. I meant snooker, darts in way of examples of skill-based sports, rather than necessarily examples of those guilty in any way of negative discrimination. I'm not familiar with the specifics of how most sports diffrentiate men and women.

I'd imagine there are still many circumstances where social stigma effectively segregates competitions, even if the rules don't prevent it.

[Super Lily]

The real gender apartheid is the degree to which male-streams of sports are assigned more status by society. We focus ridicolously on absolute successes rather than relative successes.

I suppose that absolute success is easier to define in sport, than relative success. In the 100meters, it is easy to judge who the absolute winner is. How would you judge the relative winner?

With regards to the argument that male sport gets undue greater attention, why would you think that a women running the 100 metres more than a second slower than her male compatriot, should be entitled to equal recognition?

BTW, would you support getting rid of the gender divide at the Olympics?

[cain1798]

I'd be curious to know what people's experience of underage sports are in this regard. I played under-age hurling for my club from U-11s up to minor level and up to U-18 level there were always a couple of girls on the panel. No-one seemed to care and they were good enough to earn their places. Since the club didn't have a camogie team (Though am pleased to report it does now) and most other clubs didn't either, it wasn't that rare a sight.

I do think Owen makes an excellent point in terms of the status given to the male and female sports. The Ladies Football (Ladies, I ask ye) and camogie games I've seen have generally been of a high quality, often higher than high-profile senior men's games.

Plus Galway won an All-Ireland last year in Ladies Football, demonstrating the natural order of things is at least restored in that sport.

[owenfeehan]

I suppose that absolute success is easier to define in sport, than relative success. In the 100meters, it is easy to judge who the absolute winner is. How would you judge the relative winner?

What I mean is that the man who breaks world records (say in athelethics) will be trumpeted as a national hero to a much greater extent that the women who breaks an equal number of world records. Relative to the base biological starting point, the woman's success is every bit as remarkable and worthy of recognition - yet we don't seem to recognise as much. Each is a triumph of man over nature to an equally worthy degree.

Of course variation in base physical starting level varies from sport to sport. I don't think anyone argue that individual women are born inferior at chess, for example, even if aggregate trends exist. Where significant base deviation cannot be established to exist, segregation may amount to nothing more than bigotry and underestimation of women.

BTW, would you support getting rid of the gender divide at the Olympics?

Not in areas where there is significant deviation in base physical abilities.

In other areas, I would support incremental steps to remove the gender divide. The reason I wouldn't do so immediately is that the most fundamentally important reason for the existence of sport and the Olympics is to encourage participation. The effective elimination of role models in various sports of any one gender could quell participation rates amongst young people of that gender. That would be a greater tragedy imo than the continuing lingering on of any historic relic of bigotry and chauvanism.

[Super Lily]

do think Owen makes an excellent point in terms of the status given to the male and female sports. The Ladies Football (Ladies, I ask ye) and camogie games I've seen have generally been of a high quality, often higher than high-profile senior men's games.

Yes and no. Ladies football and camoige, are very different and more skills based games than their male equiviliants and are often better to watch for the neutral who does not like violent sport. They are less physical because of the rules of the games, although I would be loath to compare the actual skills level of the particapants.

[owenfeehan]

I was just considering the post-sporting careers of many national heroes. They oftentime end up on TV presenting, coaching or in politics.

What are our chances that we'll ever see Sonia O'Sullivan on RTE commentating? Are the males of Ireland prepared to entertain women comentating on sport?

It's rare you ever see female commentators on TV, and when you do, the women tend to be presenting/chairing rather than providing analysis. I can only think of the BBCs snooker and horse racing as positive examples, although I'm not really a sports aficionado.

[KingKane]

I believe that the attitude of women to other women in sport is marginally the bigger issue here rather than the attitude of men.