Originally Posted by Drogheda445

Irish nationalism basis itself on Ireland's relationship with Britain, or England, for obvious reasons. The long presence of political union with Great Britain means that our history is heavily intertwined with them and our history is hugely influenced by them. Irish nationalism, perhaps for this reason, is unique in Europe in that, unlike France or Germany of Italy or even Britain, where the emphasis on nationalism is asserting national unity and pride, Ireland's has often been linked to a general anti-British sentiment. Our cultural association with Britain has had a profound effect on the cultural environment of Ireland today; the vast majority of us speak English as our mother tongue and British media and culture is very familiar to most of us here in Ireland. This has happened all lver the former British empire and of course right here in these islands. And yet many Irish nationalists show disdain for all things British, rather than simply promoting aspects native to Ireland such as the Irish language and Gaelic games. When we think of the other nations of this archipelago, Wales and Scotland, they have experienced similar histories with their neighbours in England, and yet their nationalism is more based on their own cultural traditions and history rather than a deep-seated hatred of England and the English. Very rarely has a Welsh nationalist politician spoken out against "foreign games" or "de-Anglicising Wales" or indeed British culture in general. Many Irish nationalists also speak out fervently against British "imperialism" (usually only Britain) and Britian's legacy across the world (especially through things such as poppy-wearing).

It is understandable that some might dislike or feel resentment towards Britain, especially as the existence of Britain's presence in Northern Ireland is one of the major aspects which nationalists oppose, but is Irish nationalism significantly built on Anglophobia or is it just a case of fervent nationalism.

This is not intended to be an anti-nationalist thread, it is just out of curiosity.

It's do with Irish nationalism and cultural forces founded in the 1800s like the GAA and the Gaelic League setting up not only to spread Irish interests and get people interested but also reinforce a distinct Irish identity with the key of it being different from any British and basing different culture and language as the basis for an independent Ireland. In a nutshell, They were obsessed with promoting Irishness as well as anti Britishness. Being against the British defined Irish nationalism for many.

I found the anti British attitude of some Irish people hypocritical especially those who follow English and Scottish football teams.
Like this

Originally Posted by Quebecoise

Define 'British' though. I've known Irish people to be anti-English or anti-Ulster Unionist but I haven't come across many who are anti-Scottish, and for the life of me I've never come across an Irish person who is anti-Welsh.

Does anybody talk of de-Anglicising Ireland in this day and age? I thought being an English-speaking, generally pro-European country was how Ireland sold itself to North American investment during the Celtic Tiger years. North America's anglophone gateway to the EU.

And the Scots can be quite anti-English btw. They always cheer on England's opposing team in every soccer match.

Hey, not so fast I have an intense dislike of those choir singing, leek munching, sheep worrying gits

Originally Posted by Niall996

The fundamental premise on which you base your post is entirely wrong and consequently everything that stems from it is profoundly flawed and misguided. There never was a 'political union' between Ireland and Britain/England. Ireland was forcibly, involuntarily and violently occupied by the British/English.

The second misguided view you express is that highlighting the atrocities of colonial rule here in Ireland, deriding Britains colonial past and challenging those on this island who have a fetish for Empire and the 'Great' in Great Britain and all that horse shyte is in any way being anti British. To the bulk of people living in Britain, good honest hard working profoundly civil, cultural compatible people, the barbarity of the past is equally abhorent to them when they are informed. The historic class structure imposed by the British ruling class that reached it's nadir in warfare is as tragic to modern Britons as it is to Irish people and democrats the world over.

However there is a group on this island who were the direct beneficiaries of colonial barbarism, the Anglo Irish/Unionist rump who exist and have survived directly through oppression. They try to not so much rewrite but write off British history ultimately to hide the crimes of their ancestors and in the North, themselves. Irish people will and should always counter. That is not anti-Britishness. It's anti many things that have also been exhibited by many other nations. And it's an opposition shared by vast numbers of British people themselves. In the exact same way, I can be horrified by what the Nazi's did and discuss it endlessly because it is one of the biggest events in hman history. But that doesn't in any way equate to being anti-German. That's a ridicualous idea. the difference is, the Nazis aren't marching down my street evey Summer. They're certainly not allowed ,march through Jewish areas chanting songs of hatred.

The third misguided point is this old red herring about the Irish somehow being more or less British anyway throught the adoption of their cultural lead. The three things I hear most to support this are language, football and media (soaps etc). Anyone who has actually travelled a bit will know that The Premier League is a global phenomenon. It is the worlds best soccer league. It has many of the worlds best players. It is watched all over the world and team jerseys are everywhere, from Ciaro to Capetown, Mexico to Bejing. It is an international global sports event just like Grand Prix racing, the Ryder Cup etc. Does watching McIlroy winning the Masters make me a slave to American culture? What a moronic idea. Does loving the Le Mans 24hrs make me a slave to Frech culture. Does a Ferrari key ring mean one is casting aside their Irishness and turning all Italian?. What kind of idiots keeep banging on about this sort of thing. In actual fact, the Irish have a pretty inique dialect of English infused gaelic grammer and 'isms. And of course, the Irish didn't embrace some cultural fashion for speaking English. They were forced to adopt it to get work in a society perversely dominated by an English speaking ruling elite. In reverse, the Irish have injected a huge amount of Irish culture into Britain. The Olympic openign ceremony had a noticably Irish perspective throughout. Northern English cities like Manchester and Liverpool had huge concentrations of Irish peole whose influence through music and television has enriched Britain. Most of the Beatles were Irish Britons, the group that defined so much of what we see as British iconography.

Finally, the other regularly touted attack on Irish people who engage in any discussion about their history is that they are victims. It's the primary ranting loop of one particular poster on here. And again, it's nonsense. When it is raised, it's just another obvious and miserably pathetic attempt by Unionists and the Anglo Irish/West Brits to deflect from the substance of the discussion which is probably about some aspect of history that makes them deeply uncomfortable. Which is understanable. If my tribe had been butchers of fellow human beings out of religious fanaticism or pure greed for land, I'd want to bury the past also. As it happens, I've never been in a famine, I've never been driven out of my cottage, I've never been left to starve by a roadside. I've never had to choose which children to take or leave as I boarded a coffin ship to America. I've never been held in internment. I've never had a job denied to me because I was a Catholic. None of the litany of horrors that were brought to this island by the British/English and cheerleaded along the way by unionists and anglo-irish benificiaries have affected me. I'm not a victim of anything. Quite the opposite. I'm the beneficiary of a country that achieved independence, went on to be one of the worlds most successful countries, remains one of the most significant cultural influences in much of the world and remains amongst the best places to live on earth. So no victim here. Sorry Ifor. But that doesn't mean I should forget about those who went before, who were victims, and whose memory should be preserved. And some day the Unionists and Andlo Irish will run out of excuses and deflections and will have to face up to who they are, where they come from and how they got here.

Ah Niall, you've gone and blown the whole thread out of the water. Spoil sport.

Nationalism is a negative political philosophy. It defines itself by what it isn't.

In our case, that is Britishness.

844 years.

Originally Posted by RahenyFG

It's do with Irish nationalism and cultural forces founded in the 1800s like the GAA and the Gaelic League setting up not only to spread Irish interests and get people interested but also reinforce a distinct Irish identity with the key of it being different from any British and basing different culture and language as the basis for an independent Ireland. In a nutshell, They were obsessed with promoting Irishness as well as anti Britishness. Being against the British defined Irish nationalism for many.

I found the anti British attitude of some Irish people hypocritical especially those who follow English and Scottish football teams.
Like this

I was a steward at that protest, it was completely peaceful. Only hassle was with a couple of over-patriotic junkies. Indeed a busload of Gardaí were withdrawn from the barriers and sent up to Dorset Street where others were causing grief.

Originally Posted by Niall996

The fundamental premise on which you base your post is entirely wrong and consequently everything that stems from it is profoundly flawed and misguided. There never was a 'political union' between Ireland and Britain/England. Ireland was forcibly, involuntarily and violently occupied by the British/English.

The second misguided view you express is that highlighting the atrocities of colonial rule here in Ireland, deriding Britains colonial past and challenging those on this island who have a fetish for Empire and the 'Great' in Great Britain and all that horse shyte is in any way being anti British. To the bulk of people living in Britain, good honest hard working profoundly civil, cultural compatible people, the barbarity of the past is equally abhorent to them when they are informed. The historic class structure imposed by the British ruling class that reached it's nadir in warfare is as tragic to modern Britons as it is to Irish people and democrats the world over.

However there is a group on this island who were the direct beneficiaries of colonial barbarism, the Anglo Irish/Unionist rump who exist and have survived directly through oppression. They try to not so much rewrite but write off British history ultimately to hide the crimes of their ancestors and in the North, themselves. Irish people will and should always counter. That is not anti-Britishness. It's anti many things that have also been exhibited by many other nations. And it's an opposition shared by vast numbers of British people themselves. In the exact same way, I can be horrified by what the Nazi's did and discuss it endlessly because it is one of the biggest events in hman history. But that doesn't in any way equate to being anti-German. That's a ridicualous idea. the difference is, the Nazis aren't marching down my street evey Summer. They're certainly not allowed ,march through Jewish areas chanting songs of hatred.

The third misguided point is this old red herring about the Irish somehow being more or less British anyway throught the adoption of their cultural lead. The three things I hear most to support this are language, football and media (soaps etc). Anyone who has actually travelled a bit will know that The Premier League is a global phenomenon. It is the worlds best soccer league. It has many of the worlds best players. It is watched all over the world and team jerseys are everywhere, from Ciaro to Capetown, Mexico to Bejing. It is an international global sports event just like Grand Prix racing, the Ryder Cup etc. Does watching McIlroy winning the Masters make me a slave to American culture? What a moronic idea. Does loving the Le Mans 24hrs make me a slave to Frech culture. Does a Ferrari key ring mean one is casting aside their Irishness and turning all Italian?. What kind of idiots keeep banging on about this sort of thing. In actual fact, the Irish have a pretty inique dialect of English infused gaelic grammer and 'isms. And of course, the Irish didn't embrace some cultural fashion for speaking English. They were forced to adopt it to get work in a society perversely dominated by an English speaking ruling elite. In reverse, the Irish have injected a huge amount of Irish culture into Britain. The Olympic openign ceremony had a noticably Irish perspective throughout. Northern English cities like Manchester and Liverpool had huge concentrations of Irish peole whose influence through music and television has enriched Britain. Most of the Beatles were Irish Britons, the group that defined so much of what we see as British iconography.

Finally, the other regularly touted attack on Irish people who engage in any discussion about their history is that they are victims. It's the primary ranting loop of one particular poster on here. And again, it's nonsense. When it is raised, it's just another obvious and miserably pathetic attempt by Unionists and the Anglo Irish/West Brits to deflect from the substance of the discussion which is probably about some aspect of history that makes them deeply uncomfortable. Which is understanable. If my tribe had been butchers of fellow human beings out of religious fanaticism or pure greed for land, I'd want to bury the past also. As it happens, I've never been in a famine, I've never been driven out of my cottage, I've never been left to starve by a roadside. I've never had to choose which children to take or leave as I boarded a coffin ship to America. I've never been held in internment. I've never had a job denied to me because I was a Catholic. None of the litany of horrors that were brought to this island by the British/English and cheerleaded along the way by unionists and anglo-irish benificiaries have affected me. I'm not a victim of anything. Quite the opposite. I'm the beneficiary of a country that achieved independence, went on to be one of the worlds most successful countries, remains one of the most significant cultural influences in much of the world and remains amongst the best places to live on earth. So no victim here. Sorry Ifor. But that doesn't mean I should forget about those who went before, who were victims, and whose memory should be preserved. And some day the Unionists and Andlo Irish will run out of excuses and deflections and will have to face up to who they are, where they come from and how they got here.

A fair post and I can agree with most of it. Certainly the legacy that has been left behind would make many in Ireland resentful of Britain as a colonial power, and not the British people themselves.

BTW, I didn't state that Ireland was a slave to British culture, rather that it has larger cultural links with it that are much stronger than those which Britain would share with other European countries and even other English-speaking countries such as the United States and Canada.

Originally Posted by Niall996

The fundamental premise on which you base your post is entirely wrong and consequently everything that stems from it is profoundly flawed and misguided. There never was a 'political union' between Ireland and Britain/England. Ireland was forcibly, involuntarily and violently occupied by the British/English.

The second misguided view you express is that highlighting the atrocities of colonial rule here in Ireland, deriding Britains colonial past and challenging those on this island who have a fetish for Empire and the 'Great' in Great Britain and all that horse shyte is in any way being anti British. To the bulk of people living in Britain, good honest hard working profoundly civil, cultural compatible people, the barbarity of the past is equally abhorent to them when they are informed. The historic class structure imposed by the British ruling class that reached it's nadir in warfare is as tragic to modern Britons as it is to Irish people and democrats the world over.

However there is a group on this island who were the direct beneficiaries of colonial barbarism, the Anglo Irish/Unionist rump who exist and have survived directly through oppression. They try to not so much rewrite but write off British history ultimately to hide the crimes of their ancestors and in the North, themselves. Irish people will and should always counter. That is not anti-Britishness. It's anti many things that have also been exhibited by many other nations. And it's an opposition shared by vast numbers of British people themselves. In the exact same way, I can be horrified by what the Nazi's did and discuss it endlessly because it is one of the biggest events in hman history. But that doesn't in any way equate to being anti-German. That's a ridicualous idea. the difference is, the Nazis aren't marching down my street evey Summer. They're certainly not allowed ,march through Jewish areas chanting songs of hatred.

The third misguided point is this old red herring about the Irish somehow being more or less British anyway throught the adoption of their cultural lead. The three things I hear most to support this are language, football and media (soaps etc). Anyone who has actually travelled a bit will know that The Premier League is a global phenomenon. It is the worlds best soccer league. It has many of the worlds best players. It is watched all over the world and team jerseys are everywhere, from Ciaro to Capetown, Mexico to Bejing. It is an international global sports event just like Grand Prix racing, the Ryder Cup etc. Does watching McIlroy winning the Masters make me a slave to American culture? What a moronic idea. Does loving the Le Mans 24hrs make me a slave to Frech culture. Does a Ferrari key ring mean one is casting aside their Irishness and turning all Italian?. What kind of idiots keeep banging on about this sort of thing. In actual fact, the Irish have a pretty inique dialect of English infused gaelic grammer and 'isms. And of course, the Irish didn't embrace some cultural fashion for speaking English. They were forced to adopt it to get work in a society perversely dominated by an English speaking ruling elite. In reverse, the Irish have injected a huge amount of Irish culture into Britain. The Olympic openign ceremony had a noticably Irish perspective throughout. Northern English cities like Manchester and Liverpool had huge concentrations of Irish peole whose influence through music and television has enriched Britain. Most of the Beatles were Irish Britons, the group that defined so much of what we see as British iconography.

Finally, the other regularly touted attack on Irish people who engage in any discussion about their history is that they are victims. It's the primary ranting loop of one particular poster on here. And again, it's nonsense. When it is raised, it's just another obvious and miserably pathetic attempt by Unionists and the Anglo Irish/West Brits to deflect from the substance of the discussion which is probably about some aspect of history that makes them deeply uncomfortable. Which is understanable. If my tribe had been butchers of fellow human beings out of religious fanaticism or pure greed for land, I'd want to bury the past also. As it happens, I've never been in a famine, I've never been driven out of my cottage, I've never been left to starve by a roadside. I've never had to choose which children to take or leave as I boarded a coffin ship to America. I've never been held in internment. I've never had a job denied to me because I was a Catholic. None of the litany of horrors that were brought to this island by the British/English and cheerleaded along the way by unionists and anglo-irish benificiaries have affected me. I'm not a victim of anything. Quite the opposite. I'm the beneficiary of a country that achieved independence, went on to be one of the worlds most successful countries, remains one of the most significant cultural influences in much of the world and remains amongst the best places to live on earth. So no victim here. Sorry Ifor. But that doesn't mean I should forget about those who went before, who were victims, and whose memory should be preserved. And some day the Unionists and Andlo Irish will run out of excuses and deflections and will have to face up to who they are, where they come from and how they got here.

What he said.

no it's not but its understandable after everything that has happened and all the wrongs done by the Brits to us over hundreds of years, the famines, the oppressions and all the murders that sometimes people are happy to see them get a taste of there own medicine that they still dish out to countries in the Middle East like iraq

How our friends in the good ole US of A see us (!):

"I’m madder than a leprechaun with a crooked shillelagh about St. Patrick’s Day!

St. Patrick’s Day is the stupidest holiday of the year, because the Irish are the craziest people on earth, next to the Paleostynians and those nutcase A-rabs. The Irish are basically just Mexicans who speak English.

Why are we having a big parade for a bunch of weirdos who pray to the Pope, believe in fairies and blow each other up?

I know my history, and this great country of ours was founded by Pilgrims and Puritans and other Protestants, not weirdo Catholics like the Irish. If it had been, the Statue of Liberty would be the Virgin Mary!

All the Irish do is get drunk and sing sad songs about dropping dead. Once a year, we let them march down the street, all boozed up on their disgusting warm brown beer. Then they stuff themselves with potatoes and cabbage and stink up the place!

Potato-eating, beer-puking Pope-lovers, that’s what they are!

What have the Irish ever done for America? They stuck us with those damn Kennedys, that’s what. Between their Old Man the crooked bootlegger, down to fat Teddy boy, that family is an embarrassment, not to mention a danger to public safety! Ralph Nader fellow should’ve left General Motors alone and gone after the Kennedys. Their cars should have warning labels instead of bumper stickers.

When St. Patrick’s Day rolls around, don’t get tricked by all the booze and the songs, my fellow Americans. It’s all part of an evil Jesuit plot to help the Vatican take over America! So stay away from all those crazy parades or you’ll end up praying to the wrong Jesus!"

ED ANGER SAYS: I HATE THE IRISH! | Weekly World News