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  1. #361
    Mercurial Mercurial is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrycelona View Post
    One of the biggest problems I have with Gay Marriage is that it is being forced down our throats. If anyone has objections to it, they are immediately labelled as Homophobic. The Gay community do not want to discuss the issues. Do they really believe that if there was a referendum held in the morning, they would have a 66% winning majority. Even on P.ie they have one of the highest readership threads but most of the comments are one liners. Try to discuss an issue and you usually end up being labelled, so why bother. If I were to meet a heterosexual who tried to force their opinion on me, I would soon tell him where to go, even if I agreed with the basis of his argument.

    The main difficulty the gay community have here is that legally, of course you are entitled to your 'human rights' but morally you are on very shaky ground but yet ye do nothing to dispel those fears. I know loads of people who would agree that you are entitled to get married but they would not vote for it in a million years, in fact most would vote against it. Think about it, you force your opinion down someone's throat and most people are just going to agree with you for the sake of an easier life. One of the most common objections I get, esp in the area of children, is that while you are fighting for YOUR rights, you are ignoring the rights of children. I think it is preferable that children are reared by, ideally, a man and woman, not by one or the other but by both. Children pick up on their parents behaviour and if there natural instinct is towards heterosexuality what is to say that the mixed messages might not affect them.

    Until the majority answer Yes to this question, then Gay marriage will not happen in this country. ????Would you want your children to be gay????

    Personally, I do not have a problem with Gay people. I have a couple of friends who are Gay and see no difference between them and my other friends. Another negative consequence of your actions is the amount of gay kids being bullied because they are gay. It is easy to blame others but could you not divert your energies into protecting these people instead of alienating the masses.

    Another thread goes on about Gay Penguins. Stop making yourselves the butt of evryones jokes. You have more dignity than that.

    A point of clarification: if gay marriage were being "forced down your throat" you would be forced to marry someone of the same sex.


    Nobody is planning on attempting that, I assure you.
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  2. #362
    Riadach Riadach is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    A point of clarification: if gay marriage were being "forced down your throat" you would be forced to marry someone of the same sex.


    Nobody is planning on attempting that, I assure you.
    With the possible exception of blokesbloke.
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  3. #363
    Tea Shark Tea Shark is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by English View Post
    "I" this, "I" that. It's all about yourself. Par for the course amongst those who engage in self-indulgent behaviour. It's the children I feel sorry for.
    Interesting choice of words. Perfectly fitting for a homophobe who wishes secretly he could indulge; but not for those to whom being homosexual is natural.
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  4. #364
    the_Observer the_Observer is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrycelona View Post
    One of the biggest problems I have with Gay Marriage is that it is being forced down our throats. If anyone has objections to it, they are immediately labelled as Homophobic. The Gay community do not want to discuss the issues. Do they really believe that if there was a referendum held in the morning, they would have a 66% winning majority. Even on P.ie they have one of the highest readership threads but most of the comments are one liners. Try to discuss an issue and you usually end up being labelled, so why bother. If I were to meet a heterosexual who tried to force their opinion on me, I would soon tell him where to go, even if I agreed with the basis of his argument.

    The main difficulty the gay community have here is that legally, of course you are entitled to your 'human rights' but morally you are on very shaky ground but yet ye do nothing to dispel those fears. I know loads of people who would agree that you are entitled to get married but they would not vote for it in a million years, in fact most would vote against it. Think about it, you force your opinion down someone's throat and most people are just going to agree with you for the sake of an easier life. One of the most common objections I get, esp in the area of children, is that while you are fighting for YOUR rights, you are ignoring the rights of children. I think it is preferable that children are reared by, ideally, a man and woman, not by one or the other but by both. Children pick up on their parents behaviour and if there natural instinct is towards heterosexuality what is to say that the mixed messages might not affect them.

    Until the majority answer Yes to this question, then Gay marriage will not happen in this country. ????Would you want your children to be gay????

    Personally, I do not have a problem with Gay people. I have a couple of friends who are Gay and see no difference between them and my other friends. Another negative consequence of your actions is the amount of gay kids being bullied because they are gay. It is easy to blame others but could you not divert your energies into protecting these people instead of alienating the masses.

    Another thread goes on about Gay Penguins. Stop making yourselves the butt of evryones jokes. You have more dignity than that.
    The arguments against gay marriage are so bad it's hard to conclude they are motivated by anything other than homophobia or prejudice.

    "Forcing your opinion down peoples throats" is otherwise known as expressing an opinion.
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  5. #365
    Barrycelona Barrycelona is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by JandK View Post
    Okay, let's discuss the points you raise. Yes, I am a gay person.



    This seems more based on your own interpretation of the issue than any reality I'm aware of in Ireland at the moment. I'm not exactly the activist type, so I don't tend to go around arguing for gay marriage with everyone I talk to, but just from listening to people I know that more and more people recognise that it is not the disastrous, problem-laden idea some of its opponents seem to think it is. On what do you base your assertion that most people would vote against gay marriage despite agreeing gay people should be allowed it? On what do you base your assertion that most people "are just going to agree with (us) for the sake of an easier life"?



    Whether or not gay couples should have the right to adopt is another issue, and there was a recent thread on this if I recall correctly. But I take issue with the last part there. I have two married heterosexual parents. They've been together for decades and love each other very much. I was actually the first person in my family to come out, as my aunts and uncles are all straight and married, and my siblings are each straight. If your logic was to hold through, I should be straight. Every gay person has two heterosexual parents. You can't "catch" being gay. I knew I was attracted to other guys before I even knew there was such a thing as homosexuality.




    This is where your argument becomes somewhat vague. There are two points in here. The first and more important one is about bullying. You phrase homophobic bullying as being the fault of the gay community, a negative consequence of our actions - our actions in this case I presume being campaigning for gay marriage and gay couples raising children, as you had just talked about that. As I already pointed out, being raised by a gay couple doesn't make a kid gay, so we'll put that argument aside. Now, homophobic bullying of kids who are gay anyway (whatever sexuality their parents are) is certainly not the fault of the gay community. Are you suggesting that by daring to provoke it, it is our fault? Would you say the same of a foreign child with foreign parents who is being bullied simply for being foreign? Homophobic bullying, like any bullying, is not the fault of the victim. You're evidently not aware, but LGBT groups do spend a lot of time on strategies to tackle and address the causes of homophobic bullying. Two examples are here:

    Stand Up! - Don't Stand for Homophobic Bullying

    Supporting LGBT Lives



    Whatever you think about the gay penguin thread, you're addressing all gay people here as if we're one, single group. We're not. We're as diverse and different as any other group of people. It would be like someone posting a message here to all the Irish people to stop drinking so much because they're making themselves the butt of everyone's jokes. You can't address a complete group of people as if they're one and the same. That's a trap a lot of people seem to fall into when it comes to gay people. I have friends who are gay, but that's not why they're my friends. They're my friends because I have shared interests with them, just like I do with my straight friends. Likewise there are plenty of gay people I have nothing in common with and couldn't befriend if I tried. Talking to gay people as if they're one is silly. I suspect any of your couple of friends who are gay would tell you the same thing, if you asked.
    You argue the point well, I take my hat off to you. You have given me a lot of points to deal with and I will happily answer them all asap. So please bear with me,
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  6. #366
    Riadach Riadach is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    I hope your family gets raped and killed and your soul utterly gets destroyed beyond repair you fūcking braindead degenerate troll.

    There is no call for this. Debate with reasonable arguments, it's fairly easy in this case.
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  7. #367
    TheMushyStuff TheMushyStuff is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrycelona View Post
    One of the biggest problems I have with Gay Marriage is that it is being forced down our throats. If anyone has objections to it, they are immediately labelled as Homophobic. The Gay community do not want to discuss the issues. Do they really believe that if there was a referendum held in the morning, they would have a 66% winning majority. Even on P.ie they have one of the highest readership threads but most of the comments are one liners. Try to discuss an issue and you usually end up being labelled, so why bother. If I were to meet a heterosexual who tried to force their opinion on me, I would soon tell him where to go, even if I agreed with the basis of his argument.

    The main difficulty the gay community have here is that legally, of course you are entitled to your 'human rights' but morally you are on very shaky ground but yet ye do nothing to dispel those fears. I know loads of people who would agree that you are entitled to get married but they would not vote for it in a million years, in fact most would vote against it. Think about it, you force your opinion down someone's throat and most people are just going to agree with you for the sake of an easier life. One of the most common objections I get, esp in the area of children, is that while you are fighting for YOUR rights, you are ignoring the rights of children. I think it is preferable that children are reared by, ideally, a man and woman, not by one or the other but by both. Children pick up on their parents behaviour and if there natural instinct is towards heterosexuality what is to say that the mixed messages might not affect them.

    Until the majority answer Yes to this question, then Gay marriage will not happen in this country. ????Would you want your children to be gay????

    Personally, I do not have a problem with Gay people. I have a couple of friends who are Gay and see no difference between them and my other friends. Another negative consequence of your actions is the amount of gay kids being bullied because they are gay. It is easy to blame others but could you not divert your energies into protecting these people instead of alienating the masses.

    Another thread goes on about Gay Penguins. Stop making yourselves the butt of evryones jokes. You have more dignity than that.
    You are right, Marriage is forced down our throats we should put a stop all marriages, the State has no business telling people who they can can't marriage (Unless the person is under-age or it isn't a person that one wants to marriage). If any idiot wants to get married than so be it we don't need to hear about it.

    Who morals?

    Damn those single parents. Single mothers you can't raise children even if it was proven you could, it shouldn't happen.

    Child it is not your fault because we knew your parents were murdering b*stards that why you became like that.

    No. Gay children are bad but the heterosexuals are the real worst. Stop making babies people.

    Yeah, how dare they pretend not to be Gay but are Gay.

    Yeah being a Gay child is bad, same as the being Black, Asian, Latino or Ginger, its those children's fault for being that way, they knew they would get bullied, its not the bullies fault they pick-on people different from themselves.
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  8. #368
    pragmaticapproach pragmaticapproach is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    I hope your family gets raped and killed and your soul utterly gets destroyed beyond repair you fūcking braindead degenerate troll.
    FFS, at least keep it to the PMs mate.
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  9. #369
    Barrycelona Barrycelona is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by JandK View Post
    Okay, let's discuss the points you raise. Yes, I am a gay person.



    This seems more based on your own interpretation of the issue than any reality I'm aware of in Ireland at the moment. I'm not exactly the activist type, so I don't tend to go around arguing for gay marriage with everyone I talk to, but just from listening to people I know that more and more people recognise that it is not the disastrous, problem-laden idea some of its opponents seem to think it is. On what do you base your assertion that most people would vote against gay marriage despite agreeing gay people should be allowed it? On what do you base your assertion that most people "are just going to agree with (us) for the sake of an easier life"?



    Whether or not gay couples should have the right to adopt is another issue, and there was a recent thread on this if I recall correctly. But I take issue with the last part there. I have two married heterosexual parents. They've been together for decades and love each other very much. I was actually the first person in my family to come out, as my aunts and uncles are all straight and married, and my siblings are each straight. If your logic was to hold through, I should be straight. Every gay person has two heterosexual parents. You can't "catch" being gay. I knew I was attracted to other guys before I even knew there was such a thing as homosexuality.




    This is where your argument becomes somewhat vague. There are two points in here. The first and more important one is about bullying. You phrase homophobic bullying as being the fault of the gay community, a negative consequence of our actions - our actions in this case I presume being campaigning for gay marriage and gay couples raising children, as you had just talked about that. As I already pointed out, being raised by a gay couple doesn't make a kid gay, so we'll put that argument aside. Now, homophobic bullying of kids who are gay anyway (whatever sexuality their parents are) is certainly not the fault of the gay community. Are you suggesting that by daring to provoke it, it is our fault? Would you say the same of a foreign child with foreign parents who is being bullied simply for being foreign? Homophobic bullying, like any bullying, is not the fault of the victim. You're evidently not aware, but LGBT groups do spend a lot of time on strategies to tackle and address the causes of homophobic bullying. Two examples are here:

    Stand Up! - Don't Stand for Homophobic Bullying

    Supporting LGBT Lives



    Whatever you think about the gay penguin thread, you're addressing all gay people here as if we're one, single group. We're not. We're as diverse and different as any other group of people. It would be like someone posting a message here to all the Irish people to stop drinking so much because they're making themselves the butt of everyone's jokes. You can't address a complete group of people as if they're one and the same. That's a trap a lot of people seem to fall into when it comes to gay people. I have friends who are gay, but that's not why they're my friends. They're my friends because I have shared interests with them, just like I do with my straight friends. Likewise there are plenty of gay people I have nothing in common with and couldn't befriend if I tried. Talking to gay people as if they're one is silly. I suspect any of your couple of friends who are gay would tell you the same thing, if you asked.
    I do not think that you can talk about marriage without discussing the wider implications of it. Marriage is in trouble. Over the last 30/40 years it has begun to fall apart. It was originally designed, as far as I can ascertain, to give the couple a status in society but mainly to benefit the children of that marriage. Over the years marriage has dealt with issues ranging from Polygamy to Divorce and a lot more besides. Each change that comes in weakens the institution. Divorce, whilst I agree it should be an option, should in the case, where there is children, be more difficult to obtain. How you do that is open to debate, whether it be increased counselling, financial implications on the partner who leaves or preventative measures being implemented before marriage, is a discussion for another day. It is a responsibility that we all have to take seriously and be held accountable for because it involves other people. I have heard all the arguments about the effects of divorce on children, abusive parents etc etc etc and can only conclude that marriage needs to be strengthened by the imposition of accountability, esp where there are children involved. When dealing with such a complex issue, you have to start with the ideal solution and then try and find the best practical solution. That is the angle from where I enter the discussion. I am anything but anti gay. I think that allowing yet another complex issue enter the equation only serves to futher weaken the institution of marriage, instead of strenghtening it. Peoples rights are very important to me but not when it comes at the expense of the rights of the majority. I do not support Gay Marriage for those reasons and I do have fears of the effects of it esp on children and therefore, on the bigger future picture, on Society. Just in the same way I have fears about the effects of divorce or bad parents or isolation of differnt communities on society. Children are the future and the more

    Now to answer your well written queries. Each paragraph below answers each point you put to me.
    I said that I support the legal protection of people of all people, in the case of gay people, I think it is tragic that when a partner dies that the family of the deceased have a greater entitlement to the estate before that of the partner. I stopped short of marriage for the above reasons.
    One of the reasons I appreciated your reply was because you are one of the first gay people who are prepared to enter in to a debate on the issue.I think that is reflected on the amount of posts this site has had. I have seen hundreds of posts, have had many conversations on the issue and instead of proper discussions, one always ends up being labelled as homophobic. Just look at some of the reponses that others have being given on this and other sites. Why argue your point with someone who does not respect your opinion, not agree with you, just allow you to voice your opinion. In my opinion, this only serves to alienate people. Many of the people I have spoken with are of the same opinion. From my experiences, Gay Marriage is not a black and white issue. There are many grey areas and it is what people feel but may not be able to articulate that will decide the issue. A bad analogy is of the existence of God, people feel it instictively that there is a Gog but you cannot prove or articulte it. A lot of these feelings may be fears, not a fear of Gay people but a fear of the effects of change. Nobody wants to deny people their rights but if they feel that it is going to dilute their rights or the rights of others, they will not articulate it, they will just decide to vote against it.
    There is a fear factor out there. Men, even well known men with their own children, ie in the schoolyard, who talk to other children are frowned on, thanks to the Catholic Church. Parents have become over protective of their children. This surely affects the child in some way. Children can be very nasty and bully other children and when you introduce another complex issue like gay marriage, you add to those affects. My point was not that children were going to be forced to become gay, it was about the psychological effects that the child might suffer and if a heterosexual man suffers from that type of discrimination, do you think it will be any better for gay men.
    I can only imagine what you must have gone through. I hope that it has all worked out well for you and that you are 'accepted' for who you are.
    On the issue of Bullying. I certainly did not say that homophobic bullying as being the fault of the gay community, I apologise if it was taken up that way. As I said earlier, this is a very complex issue and because of my experiences of having my views dismissed on threads like this and hearing and seeing others who have suffered the same experience because they said that they were against gay marriage. I was trying to make the point that instead of pushing so hard for the right to marry, that there are other issues, with the fear factor, that resources should also be given to, in order to allay those fears. If this were to be done then those 'fear factors' might begin to fade. I have seen what Bullying can do to kids, thankfully not mine, and I have taken on parents whose child is a bully and to see the bullied child grow when it has stopped, is a lovely sight. I did not know about the progs you mention, I presume that these involve working closely with schools.
    On the Penguin thread, I did not read it nor would I. I think by the very name of the thread it belittles Gay people, it belittles all of us.. Trying to justify the existence of Homsexuality because there are Gay Penguins is demeaning. At least Darwin tried to explain our origins and tried to piece the jigsaw together. Of course we are all different and diversity is good. I was referring to the Gay community as I would refer to the French or Chinese.
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  10. #370
    livingstone livingstone is offline
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    I do not think that you can talk about marriage without discussing the wider implications of it. Marriage is in trouble. Over the last 30/40 years it has begun to fall apart. It was originally designed, as far as I can ascertain, to give the couple a status in society but mainly to benefit the children of that marriage. Over the years marriage has dealt with issues ranging from Polygamy to Divorce and a lot more besides. Each change that comes in weakens the institution.
    Actually marriage was not about children – it started off as being a transaction of property – the woman went from being the property of the father to the property of the husband. Protection of children had very little to do with it.

    Weakened it? The big changes to marriage over the past 30 years? The first was about 20 years ago when the law was changed to say that rape could occur within marriage. Before then, it was assumed that a wife,by marrying her husband, consented forever more to sex whenever he wanted it and thus, prior to that change it was the legal position that a man was legally not capable of raping his wife.

    Do you think that change has weakened marriage? Do you believe we were better off when men could forcibly have sex with their wives without legal barrier?

    As to the second big change to marriage, the introduction of divorce. You have already said you believe it should be an option, so you already acknowledge that something whicb you claim weakens the wider institution should still be allowed. I happen to agree, because I don’t believe that individual lives should be constrained by an obligation to a wider concept of marriage. I don’t believe that those in unhappy or abusive marriages should sacrifice their lives to upholding some abstract concept of an institution. Likewise, I don’t believe that my right to live with stability and security with the person I love should be denied because you think it will weaken some abstract institution.

    Divorce, whilst I agree it should be an option, should in the case, where there is children, be more difficult to obtain. How you do that is open to debate, whether it be increased counselling, financial implications on the partner who leaves or preventative measures being implemented before marriage, is a discussion for another day. It is a responsibility that we all have to take seriously and be held accountable for because it involves other people. I have heard all the arguments about the effects of divorce on children, abusive parents etc etc etc and can only conclude that marriage needs to be strengthened by the imposition of accountability, esp where there are children involved. When dealing with such a complex issue, you have to start with the ideal solution and then try and find the best practical solution. That is the angle from where I enter the discussion.
    Firstly, it is incredibly difficult to get a divorce in Ireland. It demands at least four of the past five years have been spent in separation. Now if a couple have been separated for four years, then the chances of their marriage being rescuable are tiny, as are the chances that they have decided to divorce without full consideration. The myth that divorce is an easy or lightly taken option is just that – a myth.

    I am anything but anti gay. I think that allowing yet another complex issue enter the equation only serves to futher weaken the institution of marriage, instead of strenghtening it. Peoples rights are very important to me but not when it comes at the expense of the rights of the majority.
    Simply saying that gay marriage weakens the institution isn’t proof that it does so. This line often get’s bandied about. But the same argument was used by those who opposed interracial marriage in the US.

    The fact is that all our relationships are our own, and they all have their own characters and challenges. My relationship is not influenced by any others. If the couple down the hall are having a difficult relationship, it doesn’t undermine my relationship. If I have difficulties with my partner, it doesn’t undermine their relationship. If I am allowed to marry my partner, it will have no bearing whatsoever on your marriage or anyone else’s.

    I do not support Gay Marriage for those reasons and I do have fears of the effects of it esp on children and therefore, on the bigger future picture, on Society. Just in the same way I have fears about the effects of divorce or bad parents or isolation of differnt communities on society. Children are the future and the more
    Right, but you should recognise that you are listing gay marriage alongside a list of social ills in the assumption that doing so in itself makes gay marriage a social ill. When I get married, that is not in any way the same as a bad parent, or isolation of a community. If anything, it is the opposite because it will be an end to the isolation of gay and lesbian people and, in my case, it will enable me to become a parent – and I know that I can be good parent and so can my partner.

    If you want to claim that gay marriage is akin to bad parents, that;s fine. But simply listing them together doesn’t prove that fact.

    There is a fear factor out there. Men, even well known men with their own children, ie in the schoolyard, who talk to other children are frowned on, thanks to the Catholic Church. Parents have become over protective of their children. This surely affects the child in some way. Children can be very nasty and bully other children and when you introduce another complex issue like gay marriage, you add to those affects. My point was not that children were going to be forced to become gay, it was about the psychological effects that the child might suffer and if a heterosexual man suffers from that type of discrimination, do you think it will be any better for gay men.
    This is a bit confusing. Firstly, there are reams of studies, primarily in the US, of children who grew up with same sex parents which show that there is no proof of any adverse effects on children. It’s all well and good to be worried about something, but if your worries are disproved, it’s also fair enough for those worries to be treated as a bit pointless. If I said that I don’t think straight people should marry because I worry that children raised by a straight couple will turn out to be mass murderers, that worry doesn’t deserve credence if the evidence shows the contrary. Worries are only as legitimate as the evidence that backs them up.
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