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  1. #361
    livingstone livingstone is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrycelona View Post
    One of the biggest problems I have with Gay Marriage is that it is being forced down our throats. If anyone has objections to it, they are immediately labelled as Homophobic. The Gay community do not want to discuss the issues .

    Do they really believe that if there was a referendum held in the morning, they would have a 66% winning majority. Even on P.ie they have one of the highest readership threads but most of the comments are one liners. Try to discuss an issue and you usually end up being labelled, so why bother. If I were to meet a heterosexual who tried to force their opinion on me, I would soon tell him where to go, even if I agreed with the basis of his argument.
    Firstly, you’ve not looked very hard at the many threads here. Many posters have spent plenty of time discussing the issues raised. The arguments tend to be circular because posters who position themselves as centrist, rational people with doubts but open to persuasion tend to lose all sense of logic when presented with real facts. Then, when their lack of logic is pointed out, or when their opposition to gay marriage is exposed as being rooted in homophobia, they roll out the ‘you’re pushing it down people’s throats’ line.

    Here’s the thing. Some people are bigoted. Some are homophobic. Some people oppose gay marriage on that basis and they should be called out on it. And even where someone’s not starting off with outright bigotry, where their opposition essentially boils down to a view that gay couples or relationships are inherently inferior, then that deserves to be called out.

    The main difficulty the gay community have here is that legally, of course you are entitled to your 'human rights' but morally you are on very shaky ground but yet ye do nothing to dispel those fears.
    Morals are entirely subjective. If you consider that I am immoral for being gay, then I’m not going to convince you otherwise and don’t especially feel the need to. The thing is, there is a legitimate concern, plenty of people who wonder about the interests of children in gay marriage etc. I’m happy to address those concerns. But those who base their opposition to gay marriage on a moral code of thinking homosexuality is wrong are not going to be convinced, and again, I have no problem in calling them out on pretty blatant bigotry.

    One of the most common objections I get, esp in the area of children, is that while you are fighting for YOUR rights, you are ignoring the rights of children.
    That’s not actually true. One of the strongest arguments for gay marriage is to provide legal protection for children already being raised by gay couples. It is just not true to say that those advocating for gay marriage are uninterested in the rights of children. Again, either you’re not very engaged in the debate or are deliberately misleading about the basis for gay marriage.

    I think it is preferable that children are reared by, ideally, a man and woman, not by one or the other but by both. Children pick up on their parents behaviour and if there natural instinct is towards heterosexuality what is to say that the mixed messages might not affect them.
    There are two issues here – one is the question of whether a child should have the influence of both male and female in their lives. The second is whether a child raised by a homosexual couple will have difficulty with their own sexuality.

    On the first – I absolutely agree that a child should have both male and female influences on their lives. That’s why I would hope that the children of a single mother, for example, would have male relatives from whom to learn and to whom they can talk etc. I also believe that same-sex couples should ensure that their wider family and social networks are such that their children will have a wide network of family with different perspectives who they can develop good relationships with. I think the same is true for straight parents, by the way. Which is why when I have kids with my partner, I will be ensuring that they have good relationships with their grandmothers, aunts and female cousins. What you are claiming is that the very fact of being same sex should exclude couples from parentage, while ignoring that ALL parents carry things that make them good parents and things they need to improve on. If parents are very non-academic, they would be well served making up for that by ensuring their kids have a good relationship with an academic-minded relative. If they’re non-sporting, likewise. There is not a single set of parents that can offer their child everything. That’s why kids thrive in wider families, where they have relationships with lots of people with different strengths.

    On the second, frankly, it is ridiculous. A child growing up with gay parents will be taught from the offset that some people like people of their own gender and some people like people of the opposite gender, and that that’s fine and normal. They will grow up seeing straight couples as well as gay, and they will usually have the support they need whatever their sexuality.

    Until the majority answer Yes to this question, then Gay marriage will not happen in this country. ????Would you want your children to be gay????
    Aside from that being raised by gay parents has no bearing on a child being gay or not, I’d have no problem with having a gay or a straight child. Would you?
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  2. #362
    Dadaist Dadaist is offline
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    I'd vote for you livingstone!
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  3. #363
    Limerick Lad Limerick Lad is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrycelona View Post
    ......... I think it is preferable that children are reared by, ideally, a man and woman, not by one or the other but by both. Children pick up on their parents behaviour and if there natural instinct is towards heterosexuality what is to say that the mixed messages might not affect them.
    Nature or nurture? Most gay people have been reared by heterosexual couples yet they turned out gay, why would a child whose natural instinct is heterosexual be affected by their parents sexuality just because their parents happened to be gay when it's obvious that children whose natural instinct is homosexual obviously aren't influenced by their parent's sexuality
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  4. #364
    Roll_On Roll_On is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by walrusgumble View Post
    Marriage is defined in the Constitution, by our Courts .
    Courts don't define the constitution, they merely interpret it.

    Quote Originally Posted by walrusgumble View Post
    It is pretty clear to most countries in the world what a marriage is and who can enter.
    not really, in the muslim world it's polygamous, In Canada it's gender neutral. In 5 years it'll be gender neutral in almost all of western europe.
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  5. #365
    Roll_On Roll_On is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrycelona View Post
    One of the biggest problems I have with Gay Marriage is that it is being forced down our throats. If anyone has objections to it, they are immediately labelled as Homophobic. The Gay community do not want to discuss the issues. Do they really believe that if there was a referendum held in the morning, they would have a 66% winning majority. Even on P.ie they have one of the highest readership threads but most of the comments are one liners. Try to discuss an issue and you usually end up being labelled, so why bother. If I were to meet a heterosexual who tried to force their opinion on me, I would soon tell him where to go, even if I agreed with the basis of his argument.

    The main difficulty the gay community have here is that legally, of course you are entitled to your 'human rights' but morally you are on very shaky ground but yet ye do nothing to dispel those fears. I know loads of people who would agree that you are entitled to get married but they would not vote for it in a million years, in fact most would vote against it. Think about it, you force your opinion down someone's throat and most people are just going to agree with you for the sake of an easier life. One of the most common objections I get, esp in the area of children, is that while you are fighting for YOUR rights, you are ignoring the rights of children. I think it is preferable that children are reared by, ideally, a man and woman, not by one or the other but by both. Children pick up on their parents behaviour and if there natural instinct is towards heterosexuality what is to say that the mixed messages might not affect them.

    Until the majority answer Yes to this question, then Gay marriage will not happen in this country. ????Would you want your children to be gay????

    Personally, I do not have a problem with Gay people. I have a couple of friends who are Gay and see no difference between them and my other friends. Another negative consequence of your actions is the amount of gay kids being bullied because they are gay. It is easy to blame others but could you not divert your energies into protecting these people instead of alienating the masses.

    Another thread goes on about Gay Penguins. Stop making yourselves the butt of evryones jokes. You have more dignity than that.
    uppity quares you say?
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  6. #366
    Mercurial Mercurial is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrycelona View Post
    One of the biggest problems I have with Gay Marriage is that it is being forced down our throats. If anyone has objections to it, they are immediately labelled as Homophobic. The Gay community do not want to discuss the issues. Do they really believe that if there was a referendum held in the morning, they would have a 66% winning majority. Even on P.ie they have one of the highest readership threads but most of the comments are one liners. Try to discuss an issue and you usually end up being labelled, so why bother. If I were to meet a heterosexual who tried to force their opinion on me, I would soon tell him where to go, even if I agreed with the basis of his argument.

    The main difficulty the gay community have here is that legally, of course you are entitled to your 'human rights' but morally you are on very shaky ground but yet ye do nothing to dispel those fears. I know loads of people who would agree that you are entitled to get married but they would not vote for it in a million years, in fact most would vote against it. Think about it, you force your opinion down someone's throat and most people are just going to agree with you for the sake of an easier life. One of the most common objections I get, esp in the area of children, is that while you are fighting for YOUR rights, you are ignoring the rights of children. I think it is preferable that children are reared by, ideally, a man and woman, not by one or the other but by both. Children pick up on their parents behaviour and if there natural instinct is towards heterosexuality what is to say that the mixed messages might not affect them.

    Until the majority answer Yes to this question, then Gay marriage will not happen in this country. ????Would you want your children to be gay????

    Personally, I do not have a problem with Gay people. I have a couple of friends who are Gay and see no difference between them and my other friends. Another negative consequence of your actions is the amount of gay kids being bullied because they are gay. It is easy to blame others but could you not divert your energies into protecting these people instead of alienating the masses.

    Another thread goes on about Gay Penguins. Stop making yourselves the butt of evryones jokes. You have more dignity than that.

    A point of clarification: if gay marriage were being "forced down your throat" you would be forced to marry someone of the same sex.


    Nobody is planning on attempting that, I assure you.
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  7. #367
    Riadach Riadach is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    A point of clarification: if gay marriage were being "forced down your throat" you would be forced to marry someone of the same sex.


    Nobody is planning on attempting that, I assure you.
    With the possible exception of blokesbloke.
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  8. #368
    Tea Shark Tea Shark is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by English View Post
    "I" this, "I" that. It's all about yourself. Par for the course amongst those who engage in self-indulgent behaviour. It's the children I feel sorry for.
    Interesting choice of words. Perfectly fitting for a homophobe who wishes secretly he could indulge; but not for those to whom being homosexual is natural.
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  9. #369
    the_Observer the_Observer is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrycelona View Post
    One of the biggest problems I have with Gay Marriage is that it is being forced down our throats. If anyone has objections to it, they are immediately labelled as Homophobic. The Gay community do not want to discuss the issues. Do they really believe that if there was a referendum held in the morning, they would have a 66% winning majority. Even on P.ie they have one of the highest readership threads but most of the comments are one liners. Try to discuss an issue and you usually end up being labelled, so why bother. If I were to meet a heterosexual who tried to force their opinion on me, I would soon tell him where to go, even if I agreed with the basis of his argument.

    The main difficulty the gay community have here is that legally, of course you are entitled to your 'human rights' but morally you are on very shaky ground but yet ye do nothing to dispel those fears. I know loads of people who would agree that you are entitled to get married but they would not vote for it in a million years, in fact most would vote against it. Think about it, you force your opinion down someone's throat and most people are just going to agree with you for the sake of an easier life. One of the most common objections I get, esp in the area of children, is that while you are fighting for YOUR rights, you are ignoring the rights of children. I think it is preferable that children are reared by, ideally, a man and woman, not by one or the other but by both. Children pick up on their parents behaviour and if there natural instinct is towards heterosexuality what is to say that the mixed messages might not affect them.

    Until the majority answer Yes to this question, then Gay marriage will not happen in this country. ????Would you want your children to be gay????

    Personally, I do not have a problem with Gay people. I have a couple of friends who are Gay and see no difference between them and my other friends. Another negative consequence of your actions is the amount of gay kids being bullied because they are gay. It is easy to blame others but could you not divert your energies into protecting these people instead of alienating the masses.

    Another thread goes on about Gay Penguins. Stop making yourselves the butt of evryones jokes. You have more dignity than that.
    The arguments against gay marriage are so bad it's hard to conclude they are motivated by anything other than homophobia or prejudice.

    "Forcing your opinion down peoples throats" is otherwise known as expressing an opinion.
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  10. #370
    Barrycelona Barrycelona is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by JandK View Post
    Okay, let's discuss the points you raise. Yes, I am a gay person.



    This seems more based on your own interpretation of the issue than any reality I'm aware of in Ireland at the moment. I'm not exactly the activist type, so I don't tend to go around arguing for gay marriage with everyone I talk to, but just from listening to people I know that more and more people recognise that it is not the disastrous, problem-laden idea some of its opponents seem to think it is. On what do you base your assertion that most people would vote against gay marriage despite agreeing gay people should be allowed it? On what do you base your assertion that most people "are just going to agree with (us) for the sake of an easier life"?



    Whether or not gay couples should have the right to adopt is another issue, and there was a recent thread on this if I recall correctly. But I take issue with the last part there. I have two married heterosexual parents. They've been together for decades and love each other very much. I was actually the first person in my family to come out, as my aunts and uncles are all straight and married, and my siblings are each straight. If your logic was to hold through, I should be straight. Every gay person has two heterosexual parents. You can't "catch" being gay. I knew I was attracted to other guys before I even knew there was such a thing as homosexuality.




    This is where your argument becomes somewhat vague. There are two points in here. The first and more important one is about bullying. You phrase homophobic bullying as being the fault of the gay community, a negative consequence of our actions - our actions in this case I presume being campaigning for gay marriage and gay couples raising children, as you had just talked about that. As I already pointed out, being raised by a gay couple doesn't make a kid gay, so we'll put that argument aside. Now, homophobic bullying of kids who are gay anyway (whatever sexuality their parents are) is certainly not the fault of the gay community. Are you suggesting that by daring to provoke it, it is our fault? Would you say the same of a foreign child with foreign parents who is being bullied simply for being foreign? Homophobic bullying, like any bullying, is not the fault of the victim. You're evidently not aware, but LGBT groups do spend a lot of time on strategies to tackle and address the causes of homophobic bullying. Two examples are here:

    Stand Up! - Don't Stand for Homophobic Bullying

    Supporting LGBT Lives



    Whatever you think about the gay penguin thread, you're addressing all gay people here as if we're one, single group. We're not. We're as diverse and different as any other group of people. It would be like someone posting a message here to all the Irish people to stop drinking so much because they're making themselves the butt of everyone's jokes. You can't address a complete group of people as if they're one and the same. That's a trap a lot of people seem to fall into when it comes to gay people. I have friends who are gay, but that's not why they're my friends. They're my friends because I have shared interests with them, just like I do with my straight friends. Likewise there are plenty of gay people I have nothing in common with and couldn't befriend if I tried. Talking to gay people as if they're one is silly. I suspect any of your couple of friends who are gay would tell you the same thing, if you asked.
    You argue the point well, I take my hat off to you. You have given me a lot of points to deal with and I will happily answer them all asap. So please bear with me,
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