Originally Posted by Zach Dingle

I was just wondering what the general views on this one are. The United States always purports to be a classless society, when in reality the gap between is richest and poorest is 'gyenoormoose'. Britain is a class ridden society, but yet there is much more social mobility than here for sure!
Is it relevant anyway and what constitutes being in the various classes!

Ireland has a very serious problem of social exclusion.
A primary cause is an inherited class distinction which was fostered and perpetuated by our then Church owned and controlled educational system. Class distinction is everywhere in Irish life - the professions, business, social life, education and above all, in housing and where people live.
There are serious anomalies in education both in the virtual unavailability of 3rd level education to unemployed and low income families, and in the underlying philosophy of the survival of the fittest which permeates the entire system.

The latter situation effects the former in that we traditionally produce graduates who have been indoctrinated to be completely selfish, self-centred and concerned only about their own careers, with the result, that as these people are assimilated into society from generation to generation, society itself has great difficulty in establishing a collective social conscience; thus it remains effectively bulwarked against obvious humanitarian injustices.

There is no quick fix to this situation as the "I'm all right jack" people basically run the country at every level. Ireland differs very little in this respect from other countries except that we have always paraded a craw thumping hypocritical Christian facade which only serves to compound our inhumanities..
The only corrective measure which would bring long term benefits would be to initiate a debate on our educational philosophy which would set a humanitarian goal as the main agenda.
As unlikely as that seems now, there is nonetheless no hope for vast numbers who fail the survival of the fittest test - or who never get a chance to compete in the first instance - unless we examine with genuine honesty the base, inhumane origins of this philosophy.
Jim Connolly

Originally Posted by Windowshopper

I think your praise is too unadulterated every class has its share of arseholes (though I suspect the working class has fewer or at least their arseholes haven't destroyed the economy or stitched up the justice system).

The only way the working class could destroy an economy would be something akin to what the unions did in Britain in the 70s.
By definition the working class don't create jobs they fill them, they don't take risks they turn up for work, they don't make the big decisions but they do live or die by those that do. They are effectively the pawns in the game of life. You can't blame them for the mess we are in but you won't be relying on them to get us out of it either.

Originally Posted by Windowshopper

First of all I resent the accusative use of the word 'your'. I do not know of Your Country's(or as you called him/her my correspondent) views on the Anglo-Irish. From my reading /shehe just points out that they would occupy an upper class position in Irish society. I do not believe she/he was claiming that they were morally superior.

Secondly I must take exception to the following sentence: "If they are lording it over "boggers", to use your usual terms". You do not know me so don't make the assumption that I call people 'boggers' or any other classist insult (indeed considering my low place on the class ladder using such an insult would be ridiculous).

Also I never claimed the Irish were a second class in their own country if you want to engage in political debate I recommend that you refrain from strawman tactics. I was making the point that the Anglo-Irish are mostly a diminished class with some exceptions such as the Guinnesses and depriving them of their property now would just be an act of unnecessary malice.By all means tax the wealthy but don't single out the Anglo-Irish because they happen to be the descendants of aristocratic English planters; it somewhat borders on ethnic prejudice. What's next deportation of people with Norman surnames? Another point the last sentence seems to suggest that these people are not truly Irish and have no claim to this country. These people have been on the Ireland for at least 300-400 years, they are part of the fabric of this country and some of our greatest patriots have come from that class. Our flag is green, white and orange for a reason, the republicanism of Tone was based on the ideal that every Irishman no matter his religion or descendant had a right to take part in national life.

All very well but did they PAY for the land - or just seize it? That is the test.

There vast estates are an insult to the Irish poor. Why should they lord it over citizens, isn't that what was fought against?

Originally Posted by Fides

The only way the working class could destroy an economy would be something akin to what the unions did in Britain in the 70s.
By definition the working class don't create jobs they fill them, they don't take risks they turn up for work, they don't make the big decisions but they do live or die by those that do. They are effectively the pawns in the game of life. You can't blame them for the mess we are in but you won't be relying on them to get us out of it either.

If they fill the jobs and turn up for work... chances are the are mostly PAYE workers who are a big part of carrying the burden as per usual after the gimps have blown the baloney once again........i reckon it's their hard work who also keep the so called 'risk takers' and 'wealth creators' in profitable business....a lot of the time by working the extra hours for nothing to get a job finished and by the good will from going the extra yard they built up with clients and customers....

I'm older than the mean average age for people living in Ireland and one thing that I have learned is that Irish people from middle class backgrounds (parental), unless there is a severe personality disorder,eg severe (and I mean 'severe') alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling issues, severe mental health issues or just a personality where he/she cannot relate to another human at all, will always and ever be all right in this society! This is because who you know is more significant here than your qualifications and abilities re getting on! It was also pointed out to me that the middle classes have a greater sense of confidence and this shines through! Actually I disagree with that, they just have a greater sense of entitlement and are much more in the know re how to get things for themselves! Underclass rubbish have this expertise re social welfare entitlements!
Kenny made the following factual statement, AFAIK, before GE 2007, - We have a society where to many people have to work twice as hard to get halve as far! It's an awful pity that his party have done absolutely nothing to rectify this and a living bloody disgrace that his bed partners, who have the disgusting cheek to call themselves 'Socialists' have if anything made the situation even worse!

BTW I would define middle class as doing a job/ being in a profession where you can influence the course of other peoples' lives for good/evil!
All right a lad working for Supermaxie can gob on the grill or put a few snots in a chicken burger and as a consequence give a vile drunken customer food poisoning at 3.00 in the morning! But obviously, he is powerless to have a lasting change over the by now very sober but still vile individual!

Originally Posted by Desnyland

I do find that some Irish people tend to pigeon hole one another.If they can't nail you down by accent ,there is often a few searching questions on occupation , exact address ,schools attended ,whom you mix with and where .Once these facts are ascertained they know where to file you in there socio-economic file cabinet,and if you are worthy of further conversation.I would file these types under w@nkers.

+100 You have hit the nail on the head.

Of course we are. Jesuit educated boys responsible for so many of our country's f*ck ups.

I like a bit of class - Britain has no class anymore they are all chavs.

Originally Posted by Knapaghbeg

Why can all third level students not be given loans to fund their education?

The question is... Who paid for Quinns 3rd level education?