Originally Posted by ballot stuffer

John Lonergan is currently doing the rounds on radio and TV apparently promoting his new TV show. It is a mystery to me how he has become a media darling. He has cast himself as the dear friend of the underdog whose guiding hand can rectify all societies woes.
On Matt Cooper he refused to blame individuals or concede they are in prison because of their own poor choices. Instead he blames the sociopaths ultimate patsy. Society. It's every ones fault but the guy who made the bad decisions.

I think there is a simpler explanation than a wise gaoler dispensing worldly advice. I think John went native some time ago. Under his watch drug abuse thrived in Mountjoy. We all recall the contraband that was seized at the insistence of the government including phones, drugs flat screen TVs and bizarrely a budgie. Simply I contend, John was letting the prisoners have their way in return for peace.

Am I being too harsh on John Lonergan?
Is he really what he purports to be?

You raise some interesting questions. It is easy to be a media darling in this country and particularly in RTE (once you have palatable views...think Glenna Lynch). I would not criticise JL for caring about prisoners and pointing out how predictable it all is with regard to how people end up in crime. I get a little down when I hear people like JL (from cosy well pensioned position) advising people to be self confident and positive about their chances in the world...........he seems unaware that many are in the queue. I would like to see what he has done in a voluntary capacity, I think people like Fr McVerry are much better positioned to speak on these matters.

Originally Posted by cricket

Prison in the vast majority of cases doesn't work, if by working you mean helping criminals to reform. Years before they are jailed for the first time, most are lost causes and it's a matter of containment and management from there on. People still don't face up to the fact that it is no coincidence that the vast majority of prisoners come from one social class, often little more than crime ghettos.

I lived in a corporation estate growing up and can remember many of my age group who ended up in jail. Yet, you could see where they were going from the age of about 6 and even younger. Dysfunctional homes, due to family addiction, break up, mental illness, etc. drive the kids in one direction. There are, of course, exceptions but, where those problems exist, you'll find education doesn't rate in the home, yet that can save kids more than anything else. Resource support at school and in home is about the only hope. Garda Juvenile Liasion scheme can sometimes help teenagers but, even then, it can be too late. Places like St. Pat's for the most part simply provide a centre for apprentice criminals to develop.

Hoping that adults will suddenly see the light because of a harsh prison regime is fanciful nonsense. Often, the prisoner themselves will decide in their mid twenties to try to straighten themselves out, but it would have nothing to do with the harshness or lack of harshness of the prison.

I grew up in the south inner city of Dublin in the 70's and 80's and anyone who remembers those times don't need me to spell out the madness....

Anyone think that the conditions worked back then and that things are better now...?

I don't have the answer but i suspect along with the truth it's somewhere in the middle of both camps....

But one thing i will agree with Cricket on is that a few i know came out more sucessful,smarter and a bit more ruthless than before they went in on stuff that could of been dealt with in a different manner...i'm saying let the walk away but locking them up was a bad move....

John L is a highly intelligent man and much of what he espouses now was learned in Mountjoy Prison. He acknowledges that himself. You simply cannot be exposed to that volume of evidence and not be shaped in your thoughts and ideas by it. Met him a few times socially (and he does not do much socialising ! ) and found him to be very well informed and bang up to the minute regarding the 'word on the street'. He knows 'officialdom' inside out and no doubt can see that when it comes to prison management and reform much of the well intentioned provisions of the public service are a waste of time. When you work at the coalface for as long as he did, certain truths eventually seep through and you begin to see the futility and misdirection of official responses. Most people in that position allow a deep cynicism to overwhelm them in their outlook but, in fairness, not so John L.
Carry on John, your critics do not have your knowledge or experience and therefore must be disregarded. Been there & done that...etc.

Originally Posted by Lonewolfe

You probably are being a bit hrsh. Remember, there was a time (during the boom) when Amnesty International weren't even allowed to visit Mount Joy, its problems were that bad.

The over crowding, slopping out etc have been well documented.

The new prision (Thornton Hall) won't be built now although it's badly needed.

I don't know that Lonergan "decided" to allow drugs into the prison. What I do know is that he was chronically under resourced.

Why in the name of Jeepers would Amnesty have wanted to visit Mountjoy? Amnesty exists to protect people imprisoned for their political views, religion etc. Not these scum. Surely you are mistaken???

Originally Posted by dresden8

Poor criminals go to prison, rich criminals don't.

Use that as you starting point for the ills of "society".

That sounds like a criminals charter to me. Would you accept that as an excuse when some bloke robs your telly?

Originally Posted by Aristodemus

You are not too harsh on him. You are dead right that he's a media darling. Prison is meant to reform people, it never seemed to be the case under his watch. There was also a very tolerant attitude to the availability of drugs in prison and he did little or nothing to stamp it out. It speaks volumes that many prisoners came out of Mountjoy addicted to drugs when they were clean going in!

Spot on.

Originally Posted by Abacus

John L is a highly intelligent man and much of what he espouses now was learned in Mountjoy Prison. He acknowledges that himself. You simply cannot be exposed to that volume of evidence and not be shaped in your thoughts and ideas by it. Met him a few times socially (and he does not do much socialising ! ) and found him to be very well informed and bang up to the minute regarding the 'word on the street'. He knows 'officialdom' inside out and no doubt can see that when it comes to prison management and reform much of the well intentioned provisions of the public service are a waste of time. When you work at the coalface for as long as he did, certain truths eventually seep through and you begin to see the futility and misdirection of official responses. Most people in that position allow a deep cynicism to overwhelm them in their outlook but, in fairness, not so John L.
Carry on John, your critics do not have your knowledge or experience and therefore must be disregarded. Been there & done that...etc.

It would appear that the performance of the governor of Mountjoy prison improved significantly as soon as John L left that position and was replaced by someone who took steps to take drugs out of the prison.

Would you accept that point?

Originally Posted by noodles

When most of the prisoners come from tiny ghetto areas then that is proof that there are factors other than personal choice at play.

Lonergan is also good on the concept of crime and punishment. Removal of liberty and public admittance of the crime are the punishment. Once in prison, prisoners need not be further punished. A lot of irish people are vengeful.

A very convenient piece of rhetoric by John Longeron, but in the first instance , prison is supposed to be a deterrent, under Longerans watch , prison became a university for criminals, The most pointed indictment of his reign, was that his own staff, ie prison officers detested him with a vengence, it would appear that Longeran sucked up the the criminals in order to give himself a soft time, at the expense of the public and his own staff.
He seemed to decide to act as god in the Irish criminal system

I do not think the OP is being unfair, and I made a thread in similar vein previously. A man was brutallly murdered in his prison a few years ago, not to mention all the suicides over the years, but it's always someone else's fault, isn't it.

Originally Posted by paulp

It would appear that the performance of the governor of Mountjoy prison improved significantly as soon as John L left that position and was replaced by someone who took steps to take drugs out of the prison.

Would you accept that point?

That is a true and the man that replaced him gets on with his job, no high media profile. I think Lonergan was just a populist loud mouth who suited the media types who gave him plenty of publicity.