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  1. #111
    Humbert Humbert is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12 bens View Post
    You are so right! And I'm trying to get the kids to bed and I'm waiting for my husband
    to come home from the pub. However back to the subject of Bloom. It appears that Danis
    Rose, Declan Kiberd, David Norris, Andrew Gibson, Fritz Senn and Fintan O'Toole are aware
    of this discovery and, if my informant is correct, all are of the opinion that this was a real person
    and that the parallels with Bloom are interesting at the very least. Why don't you search the Irish
    Times archive...you seem to have time on your hands!
    Interesting - I'm surprised it hasn't been the subject of a long article in the IT on this very day.
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  2. #112
    Ex celt Ex celt is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by 12 bens View Post
    You are so right! And I'm trying to get the kids to bed and I'm waiting for my husband
    to come home from the pub. However back to the subject of Bloom. It appears that Danis
    Rose, Declan Kiberd, David Norris, Andrew Gibson, Fritz Senn and Fintan O'Toole are aware
    of this discovery and, if my informant is correct, all are of the opinion that this was a real person
    and that the parallels with Bloom are interesting at the very least. Why don't you search the Irish
    Times archive...you seem to have time on your hands!
    I will.Interesting stuff.Thank you.
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  3. #113
    12 bens 12 bens is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humbert View Post
    Interesting - I'm surprised it hasn't been the subject of a long article in the IT on this very day.
    So am I. Everyone scared to stick their neck out I suspect...upset the Joyce industry and the intellectual elite.
    Anyway there is a lot out there in the public domain. Perhaps it's because the parallels are not 100% precise that it's being dismissed as circumstantial. The phrase I heard was 'broadly in the frame for part of the composite character of Bloom'.
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  4. #114
    Humbert Humbert is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12 bens View Post
    So am I. Everyone scared to stick their neck out I suspect...upset the Joyce industry and the intellectual elite.
    Anyway there is a lot out there in the public domain. Perhaps it's because the parallels are not 100% precise that it's being dismissed as circumstantial. The phrase I heard was 'broadly in the frame for part of the composite character of Bloom'.
    Interesting all the same - jewish republican christian - and Joyce had a particular interest in Usher's Island.
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  5. #115
    12 bens 12 bens is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humbert View Post
    Interesting all the same - jewish republican christian - and Joyce had a particular interest in Usher's Island.
    Dis here is heavy ************************ brudda! Come to think of it John Stanislaus Joyce owed money to a man known as
    'The Man at the Top' in 1903 according to the biography by Peter Costello and John Wyse Jackson. Was
    this Bloom? I suspect Hugh Kenner was right- Anthony Cronin said in the late 1970's that Griffith had a Jewish
    adviser cum ghost writer.When I get a moment I'll make a call and get his name.I made notes earlier but I can't
    read them.Watch out Bloomites!
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  6. #116
    12 bens 12 bens is offline

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    It's ALTMAN the SALTMAN.
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  7. #117
    Lonewolfe Lonewolfe is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by 12 bens View Post
    Dis here is heavy ************************ brudda! Come to think of it John Stanislaus Joyce owed money to a man known as
    'The Man at the Top' in 1903 according to the biography by Peter Costello and John Wyse Jackson. Was
    this Bloom? I suspect Hugh Kenner was right- Anthony Cronin said in the late 1970's that Griffith had a Jewish
    adviser cum ghost writer.When I get a moment I'll make a call and get his name.I made notes earlier but I can't
    read them.Watch out Bloomites!
    Whether Bloom is based on a real person or not, he is still, ultimately a fantastic creation of Joyces and as Humbert said earlier, I think the fact that he is Jewish was an important vehicle for Joyce to write the perfect outsider - Bloom can never be truly Irish in the eyes of extreme Nationalists.
    Last edited by Lonewolfe; 17th June 2012 at 12:15 AM.
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  8. #118
    12 bens 12 bens is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonewolfe View Post
    Whether Bloom is based on a real person or not, he is still, ultimately a fantstic creation of Joyces and as Humbert said earlier, I think the Jewishness was a vehicle for Joyce to write the perfect outsider - Bloom can never be truly Irish in the eyes of extreme Nationalists.
    ..You back again! You open a discussion about a book which, you admit, you have not read. You are clearly
    out of your depth. Read the book then come back and 'get a life'.
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  9. #119
    Lonewolfe Lonewolfe is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by 12 bens View Post
    ..You back again! You open a discussion about a book which, you admit, you have not read. You are clearly
    out of your depth. Read the book then come back and 'get a life'.
    Hee hee he heee. I've about 50 pages left now, so yea, I get the gist of it.

    You made a rediculous claim that Bloom was a Fenian and failing this, you then attempted to project Fenianism onto Joyce -there is zero evidene for these claims.

    In fact, the exact opposite is one of the first and foremost characteristics of both Joyce and Bloom. Really, this is 101, elementary stuff - neither Joyce nor Bloom fit the typical Nationalist mould.

    By the way, your pretentious nonsense about secret sources and late night phone calls can all be put on hold. It would appear that the Cork Evening Echo got there before you.

    By VINCENT ALTMAN O’CONNOR

    IT’S almost Bloomsday! Time for the denizens of Cork to be underwhelmed as Dubliners celebrate the adventures of Leopold Bloom on June 16.
    But perhaps there is more in the book Ulysses for Corkonians to get excited about than meets the eye.
    While many are aware that Joyce’s father, John, had his roots in Cork, there is now strong evidence that the book’s famous fictional character Leopold Bloom also had Cork connections.
    The link stems from a real-life character called Albert Liebes Altman, known as Altman the Saltman. I believe there is now a strong case that this character was Joyce’s main source for Bloom.
    Altman, a Jew, was elected to Dublin Corporation as a radical Nationalist in 1901. With an address at Ushers Island, this merchant supplied salt and coal to the nearby Jewish baths — hence his nickname.
    The Joyce family who visited their relatives, the Flynns, a few doors away — immortalised in The Dead — would have been well aware of this colourful personality.
    In 1880, Altman married Susan O’Reilly of Thomond Square, Old Blackrock Road, in St Finbarr’s South, Cork, daughter of Denis O’Reilly, a paper merchant of Maylor Street.
    Like Leopold Bloom, Altman had a son, Albert Denis, who died in infancy. He also had a daughter Mimi — Milly is Bloom’s daughter.
    Altman became a strong supporter of Parnell and the Land League. Rumour had it that James Fitzharris, known as Skin the Goat of the Invincibles, and later James Connolly were employed at Altman’s salt depot. In Ulysses, Leopold Bloom meets Skin the Goat and the crusty sailor from Cork at Butt Bridge.
    Altman was buried in Glasnevin a few metres from Matthew Kane, on whom the character of Dignam is based.
    Prominently etched on Altman’s gravestone is the name of his Cork father-in-law, emphasising the importance he gave to his Cork connection.
    Read the full story in Wednesday’s Cork Evening Echo
    http://www.eveningecho.ie/2012/06/13.../#.T90QTvXZWSo
    Last edited by Lonewolfe; 17th June 2012 at 12:17 AM.
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  10. #120
    12 bens 12 bens is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonewolfe View Post
    Hee hee he heee. I've about 50 pages left now, so yea, I get the jist of it.

    You made a rediculous claim that Bloom was a Fenian and failing this, you then attempted to project Fenianism onto Joyce -there is zero evidene for these claims.

    In fact, the exact opposite is one of the first and foremost characteristics of both Joyce and Bloom. Really, this is 101, elementary stuff - neither Joyce nor Bloom fit the typical Nationalist mould.

    By the way, your pretentious nonsense about secret sources and late night phone calls can all be put on hold. It would appear that the Cork Evening Echo got there before you.



    Sorry, Dubs, Bloom's Wife Was From Cork!
    Well done! So do you think that Bloom is based on Altman?
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