Impending Schism in the Irish Church

[Grommit]

I am concerned for the future of the Irish Church. Particularly because of the hostile commentary that is going on on TV, the print media and the internet (recent rumours surrounding Archbishop McQuaid are a case in point). There is in-fighting amongst Catholics too and if it's not sorted out, things will get even uglier. I lay out some of the issues currently facing the Irish Church and if they are left unresolved (problems + time = crisis), it could lead to a schism emerging.

The sex abuse scandals
Most right-minded people are absolutely disgusted by what has gone on in the Irish Church - paedophile/ephebophile priests, sadistic clergy and religious and to top it all off, a hierarchy that has attempted to cover-up crimes and protect abusers from criminal prosecution. This is driving people away in their droves and is financially squeezing the entire Irish Church. Thankfully pretty much all abuse victims have received apologies and have been compensated (in the main outside of court without the need to recount harrowing details), but this is not enough. The hierarchy have paid lip service to "Friday Penance" that everyone was supposed to be doing (on the orders of Pope Benedict himself) and are pre-occupied with "renewal of the Church" through the white elephant that is the Eucharistic Congress 2012. In my opinion, if we stuck to proper catechisis, none of this abuse could have occurred in the first place. I would like to see a cathedral built in memory of all victims of abuse and a nearby monastery dedicated to praying for the souls of all abuse victims and abuse perpetrators that are/will be burning in hell. That would be one uniting gesture.

Liberal vs. conservative Catholics
There is growing bitterness between liberal and conservative Catholics in Ireland. Each blames the other for the sex abuse scandals and with Pope Benedict looking more favourably upon bishops who can say Latin Mass, it only alienates liberal clergy and makes them more bitter. Their reaction has been to set up groups such as the "Association of Catholic Priests" and try to gather enough momentum to strike back at more traditional forces that are currently taking over. Then there is the laity, some of whom prefer happy-clappy Mass, others who are staunch liturgists and will say it to the priest if he makes mistakes or (for example) deliberately uses "inclusive language" during Mass as is all too common these days. I would like to see liberal and conservative catholics come together in a civilised forum and discuss the shared vision for the future, instead of constantly bickering and dividing themselves into two political camps. The future is a Catholic Church that caters for all traditions, united under the same banner: the Word of God, the authority of the Pope, the dogmas of the Church and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

A la carte Catholics
The days for a la carte Catholics are numbered. No longer is the Church able to administer the sacraments to the masses as there simply aren't enough priests/deacons. The church simply cannot afford (both spiritually and financially) to be patron to catholic-by-name schools and hospitals, as well as run a church in every parish in the country. Luckily we can import priests from abroad, but assimilating these priests into rural and urban Irish life is a challenge. So, preference must be given to card-carrying Catholics who pay their dues and go to Mass. At the moment, the church is imploding on itself. What is needed is a smaller, truer and more accommodating church (i.e. liberal and conservative traditions respected) to emerge from the current chaos. Once a sizeable, secure and true Church exists, it can grow again and reach out to those who need God once again. A la cartes should have the maturity to analyse their beliefs and make a decision if they want to be part of the church or not.

The thorny issues
Homosexuality, abortion, women priests, contraception, masturbation and stem-cell research, to name but a few, are perfectly acceptable to large swathes of the Irish population. Even some Mass-goers believe it perfectly acceptable to engage in these things without any consequence to their soul. Sometimes it's out of ignorance, but more often, it's down to the secular political views they have bought in to and it's convenient for them to go on living in such a way. Many of those who aren't happy with the thorny issues have had the courage to go and join one of the Protestant churches - I wish them well, but others are quite content on entrenching themselves inside the Catholic church and drumming up open dissent and heresy against priests, bishops and Rome. They are forming groups and trying to steal the assets of the church for their own empire-building agenda. These people need to be stopped and told to either break away or go away. It cannot go on for much longer.

I say all this as a lay person with a tarnished soul and put it out for discussion, as I am deeply interested in the future of the Irish Church.

[Ribeye]

Erm, I hate to complain about what is a really well structured, well thought out, eloquent and genuine OP,

But you seem to have left out the single biggest problem facing the RCC, the one which makes all the others pale into insignificance,

[The Field Marshal]

I am concerned for the future of the Irish Church. Particularly because of the hostile commentary that is going on on TV, the print media and the internet (recent rumours surrounding Archbishop McQuaid are a case in point). There is in-fighting amongst Catholics too and if it's not sorted out, things will get even uglier. I lay out some of the issues currently facing the Irish Church and if they are left unresolved (problems + time = crisis), it could lead to a schism emerging.

The sex abuse scandals
Most right-minded people are absolutely disgusted by what has gone on in the Irish Church - paedophile/ephebophile priests, sadistic clergy and religious and to top it all off, a hierarchy that has attempted to cover-up crimes and protect abusers from criminal prosecution. This is driving people away in their droves and is financially squeezing the entire Irish Church. Thankfully pretty much all abuse victims have received apologies and have been compensated (in the main outside of court without the need to recount harrowing details), but this is not enough. The hierarchy have paid lip service to "Friday Penance" that everyone was supposed to be doing (on the orders of Pope Benedict himself) and are pre-occupied with "renewal of the Church" through the white elephant that is the Eucharistic Congress 2012. In my opinion, if we stuck to proper catechisis, none of this abuse could have occurred in the first place. I would like to see a cathedral built in memory of all victims of abuse and a nearby monastery dedicated to praying for the souls of all abuse victims and abuse perpetrators that are/will be burning in hell. That would be one uniting gesture.

Liberal vs. conservative Catholics
There is growing bitterness between liberal and conservative Catholics in Ireland. Each blames the other for the sex abuse scandals and with Pope Benedict looking more favourably upon bishops who can say Latin Mass, it only alienates liberal clergy and makes them more bitter. Their reaction has been to set up groups such as the "Association of Catholic Priests" and try to gather enough momentum to strike back at more traditional forces that are currently taking over. Then there is the laity, some of whom prefer happy-clappy Mass, others who are staunch liturgists and will say it to the priest if he makes mistakes or (for example) deliberately uses "inclusive language" during Mass as is all too common these days. I would like to see liberal and conservative catholics come together in a civilised forum and discuss the shared vision for the future, instead of constantly bickering and dividing themselves into two political camps. The future is a Catholic Church that caters for all traditions, united under the same banner: the Word of God, the authority of the Pope, the dogmas of the Church and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

A la carte Catholics
The days for a la carte Catholics are numbered. No longer is the Church able to administer the sacraments to the masses as there simply aren't enough priests/deacons. The church simply cannot afford (both spiritually and financially) to be patron to catholic-by-name schools and hospitals, as well as run a church in every parish in the country. Luckily we can import priests from abroad, but assimilating these priests into rural and urban Irish life is a challenge. So, preference must be given to card-carrying Catholics who pay their dues and go to Mass. At the moment, the church is imploding on itself. What is needed is a smaller, truer and more accommodating church (i.e. liberal and conservative traditions respected) to emerge from the current chaos. Once a sizeable, secure and true Church exists, it can grow again and reach out to those who need God once again. A la cartes should have the maturity to analyse their beliefs and make a decision if they want to be part of the church or not.

The thorny issues
Homosexuality, abortion, women priests, contraception, masturbation and stem-cell research, to name but a few, are perfectly acceptable to large swathes of the Irish population. Even some Mass-goers believe it perfectly acceptable to engage in these things without any consequence to their soul. Sometimes it's out of ignorance, but more often, it's down to the secular political views they have bought in to and it's convenient for them to go on living in such a way. Many of those who aren't happy with the thorny issues have had the courage to go and join one of the Protestant churches - I wish them well, but others are quite content on entrenching themselves inside the Catholic church and drumming up open dissent and heresy against priests, bishops and Rome. They are forming groups and trying to steal the assets of the church for their own empire-building agenda. These people need to be stopped and told to either break away or go away. It cannot go on for much longer.

I say all this as a lay person with a tarnished soul and put it out for discussion, as I am deeply interested in the future of the Irish Church.

Thank you for an interesting and observant post.
I will reply more fully later on.

For the moment I dont think you need worry

as , thankfully, there is insufficient intellectual matériel in the Irish hierarchy to foster a schism.

---

[statsman]

I am concerned for the future of the Irish Church. Particularly because of the hostile commentary that is going on on TV, the print media and the internet (recent rumours surrounding Archbishop McQuaid are a case in point). There is in-fighting amongst Catholics too and if it's not sorted out, things will get even uglier. I lay out some of the issues currently facing the Irish Church and if they are left unresolved (problems + time = crisis), it could lead to a schism emerging.

The sex abuse scandals
Most right-minded people are absolutely disgusted by what has gone on in the Irish Church - paedophile/ephebophile priests, sadistic clergy and religious and to top it all off, a hierarchy that has attempted to cover-up crimes and protect abusers from criminal prosecution. This is driving people away in their droves and is financially squeezing the entire Irish Church. Thankfully pretty much all abuse victims have received apologies and have been compensated (in the main outside of court without the need to recount harrowing details), but this is not enough. The hierarchy have paid lip service to "Friday Penance" that everyone was supposed to be doing (on the orders of Pope Benedict himself) and are pre-occupied with "renewal of the Church" through the white elephant that is the Eucharistic Congress 2012. In my opinion, if we stuck to proper catechisis, none of this abuse could have occurred in the first place. I would like to see a cathedral built in memory of all victims of abuse and a nearby monastery dedicated to praying for the souls of all abuse victims and abuse perpetrators that are/will be burning in hell. That would be one uniting gesture.

Liberal vs. conservative Catholics
There is growing bitterness between liberal and conservative Catholics in Ireland. Each blames the other for the sex abuse scandals and with Pope Benedict looking more favourably upon bishops who can say Latin Mass, it only alienates liberal clergy and makes them more bitter. Their reaction has been to set up groups such as the "Association of Catholic Priests" and try to gather enough momentum to strike back at more traditional forces that are currently taking over. Then there is the laity, some of whom prefer happy-clappy Mass, others who are staunch liturgists and will say it to the priest if he makes mistakes or (for example) deliberately uses "inclusive language" during Mass as is all too common these days. I would like to see liberal and conservative catholics come together in a civilised forum and discuss the shared vision for the future, instead of constantly bickering and dividing themselves into two political camps. The future is a Catholic Church that caters for all traditions, united under the same banner: the Word of God, the authority of the Pope, the dogmas of the Church and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

A la carte Catholics
The days for a la carte Catholics are numbered. No longer is the Church able to administer the sacraments to the masses as there simply aren't enough priests/deacons. The church simply cannot afford (both spiritually and financially) to be patron to catholic-by-name schools and hospitals, as well as run a church in every parish in the country. Luckily we can import priests from abroad, but assimilating these priests into rural and urban Irish life is a challenge. So, preference must be given to card-carrying Catholics who pay their dues and go to Mass. At the moment, the church is imploding on itself. What is needed is a smaller, truer and more accommodating church (i.e. liberal and conservative traditions respected) to emerge from the current chaos. Once a sizeable, secure and true Church exists, it can grow again and reach out to those who need God once again. A la cartes should have the maturity to analyse their beliefs and make a decision if they want to be part of the church or not.

The thorny issues
Homosexuality, abortion, women priests, contraception, masturbation and stem-cell research, to name but a few, are perfectly acceptable to large swathes of the Irish population. Even some Mass-goers believe it perfectly acceptable to engage in these things without any consequence to their soul. Sometimes it's out of ignorance, but more often, it's down to the secular political views they have bought in to and it's convenient for them to go on living in such a way. Many of those who aren't happy with the thorny issues have had the courage to go and join one of the Protestant churches - I wish them well, but others are quite content on entrenching themselves inside the Catholic church and drumming up open dissent and heresy against priests, bishops and Rome. They are forming groups and trying to steal the assets of the church for their own empire-building agenda. These people need to be stopped and told to either break away or go away. It cannot go on for much longer.

I say all this as a lay person with a tarnished soul and put it out for discussion, as I am deeply interested in the future of the Irish Church.

Maybe they just don't care any more.

[westernyelp]

What about women priests masturbating homosexuals into a condom for stem cell research? Thorny baby!

[ruserious]

I think all Religious Threads should be bound into the one mega-thread such as the 'Climate Change Debate Thread because as far as I see it, they are both bullshít.

[Eire1976]

I'm not concerned for the Irish church from any of it's faces be they COI or RC.

Neither have done Ireland or it's peoples any service except to bring about rotten sentiment.

What we need is a new Christian church in Ireland where priests are allowed to marry and have children.

It's only allegience to the Island of Ireland and it's peoples.

Lets face it, the majority in Ireland are protestant in all but name. Time we all moved on officially from RC and founded our own christian church of Ireland where there can be unity of the Churches.

This would not only allow many to return to religion but help bring unity.

[brigg]

Even some Mass-goers believe it perfectly acceptable to engage in these things without any consequence to their soul.

I hate to burst your bubble, but even some of the priests and catholic theologians who are currently lecturing Ireland's future religious education teachers have liberal views on such issues.
Perhaps the biggest issue facing the church are so called "lay" people who are far more conservative, narrow-minded and backward than the clergy they supposedly look up to.

[hiker]

I am concerned for the future of the Irish Church. Particularly because of the hostile commentary that is going on on TV, the print media and the internet (recent rumours surrounding Archbishop McQuaid are a case in point). There is in-fighting amongst Catholics too and if it's not sorted out, things will get even uglier. I lay out some of the issues currently facing the Irish Church and if they are left unresolved (problems + time = crisis), it could lead to a schism emerging.

The sex abuse scandals
Most right-minded people are absolutely disgusted by what has gone on in the Irish Church - paedophile/ephebophile priests, sadistic clergy and religious and to top it all off, a hierarchy that has attempted to cover-up crimes and protect abusers from criminal prosecution. This is driving people away in their droves and is financially squeezing the entire Irish Church. Thankfully pretty much all abuse victims have received apologies and have been compensated (in the main outside of court without the need to recount harrowing details), but this is not enough. The hierarchy have paid lip service to "Friday Penance" that everyone was supposed to be doing (on the orders of Pope Benedict himself) and are pre-occupied with "renewal of the Church" through the white elephant that is the Eucharistic Congress 2012. In my opinion, if we stuck to proper catechisis, none of this abuse could have occurred in the first place. I would like to see a cathedral built in memory of all victims of abuse and a nearby monastery dedicated to praying for the souls of all abuse victims and abuse perpetrators that are/will be burning in hell. That would be one uniting gesture.

Liberal vs. conservative Catholics
There is growing bitterness between liberal and conservative Catholics in Ireland. Each blames the other for the sex abuse scandals and with Pope Benedict looking more favourably upon bishops who can say Latin Mass, it only alienates liberal clergy and makes them more bitter. Their reaction has been to set up groups such as the "Association of Catholic Priests" and try to gather enough momentum to strike back at more traditional forces that are currently taking over. Then there is the laity, some of whom prefer happy-clappy Mass, others who are staunch liturgists and will say it to the priest if he makes mistakes or (for example) deliberately uses "inclusive language" during Mass as is all too common these days. I would like to see liberal and conservative catholics come together in a civilised forum and discuss the shared vision for the future, instead of constantly bickering and dividing themselves into two political camps. The future is a Catholic Church that caters for all traditions, united under the same banner: the Word of God, the authority of the Pope, the dogmas of the Church and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

A la carte Catholics
The days for a la carte Catholics are numbered. No longer is the Church able to administer the sacraments to the masses as there simply aren't enough priests/deacons. The church simply cannot afford (both spiritually and financially) to be patron to catholic-by-name schools and hospitals, as well as run a church in every parish in the country. Luckily we can import priests from abroad, but assimilating these priests into rural and urban Irish life is a challenge. So, preference must be given to card-carrying Catholics who pay their dues and go to Mass. At the moment, the church is imploding on itself. What is needed is a smaller, truer and more accommodating church (i.e. liberal and conservative traditions respected) to emerge from the current chaos. Once a sizeable, secure and true Church exists, it can grow again and reach out to those who need God once again. A la cartes should have the maturity to analyse their beliefs and make a decision if they want to be part of the church or not.

The thorny issues
Homosexuality, abortion, women priests, contraception, masturbation and stem-cell research, to name but a few, are perfectly acceptable to large swathes of the Irish population. Even some Mass-goers believe it perfectly acceptable to engage in these things without any consequence to their soul. Sometimes it's out of ignorance, but more often, it's down to the secular political views they have bought in to and it's convenient for them to go on living in such a way. Many of those who aren't happy with the thorny issues have had the courage to go and join one of the Protestant churches - I wish them well, but others are quite content on entrenching themselves inside the Catholic church and drumming up open dissent and heresy against priests, bishops and Rome. They are forming groups and trying to steal the assets of the church for their own empire-building agenda. These people need to be stopped and told to either break away or go away. It cannot go on for much longer.

I say all this as a lay person with a tarnished soul and put it out for discussion, as I am deeply interested in the future of the Irish Church.

Nationalise the church.
Confiscate all church property.
Appoint a Civil Servant to head the operation.
Wind it down and start again.

[zaclad]

women priests, contraception, masturbation and stem-cell research, to name but a few, are perfectly acceptable to large swathes of the Irish population. Even some Mass-goers believe it perfectly acceptable to engage in these things without any consequence to their soul.

So women who engage in a thing called the priesthood are destined for hell are they?