Originally Posted by underheaven

Apart from short periods ,women were /are more free under christianity
than at any other times in history, you ignorant one.
In France until the revolution women were better educated.
Take off your your 'dirty' spectacles,and give them a good clean !

Were they more free during the dark ages, that resulted in large part due to christianity?

its a little off topic, but i say we should discard these foreign abrahamic belief systems back to the slums of judea and ressurrect our pre-christian spirit, the same noble spirit that gave rise to the civilisations of hellas and rome.

Originally Posted by Just Jack

Yes.

Ok you favour then
[1] the liquidation of all physically and mentally disabled persons
[2] your own liquidation should you become physically or mentally disabled.

These views are certainly extreme so I hope you wont mind me asking you

a few questions:

What criteria would you apply in defining disablement?
Can you justify this on any moral basis.?

Originally Posted by The Field Marshal

Ok you favour then

[1] the liquidation of all physically and mentally disabled persons

Depends how severe it is.

Technically someone who is dyslexic could qualify as mentally impaired. However, I don’t think this type of person, or indeed those suffering from similar inflictions should be exterminated.

[2] your own liquidation should you become physically or mentally disabled.

Absolutely.

If I ever became physically debilitated, I would definitely favour the process of assisted suicide.

Or in the case of becoming mentally impaired - beyond proper human functioning – I would hope my family would be given the power to make that decesion for me.

What criteria would you apply in defining disablement?

Can you justify this on any moral basis.?

I find most forms of physical and mental retardations cruel and malevolent. However, as I’ve illustrated above, some may not be as severe, in which case no action would be necessary.

Eliminating these mistakes from our midst is fundamentally humane IMO – that is where I draw my moral justification.

Originally Posted by Just Jack

Depends how severe it is.

Technically someone who is dyslexic could qualify as mentally impaired. However, I don’t think this type of person, or indeed those suffering from similar inflictions should be exterminated.

So really there is no criteria and it boils down to the personal opinion of the selecting officer.
That was how the nazis operated the death camps.

Originally Posted by Just Jack

Absolutely.

If I ever became physically debilitated, I would definitely favour the process of assisted suicide.

Or in the case of becoming mentally impaired - beyond proper human functioning – I would hope my family would be given the power to make that decesion for me.

We are not discussing assisted suicide but the compulsory liquidation of pyhsically and mentally impaired individuals which might include yourself .
There are no decisions involved since according to your own rationale all those who fall below a minimum criteria [which you refuse to define] must be liquidated.

Originally Posted by Just Jack

I find most forms of physical and mental retardations extreme. However, as I’ve illustrated above, some may not be as severe, in which case no action would be necessary.

Your just avoiding the fundamental question of selection criteria once more.

Originally Posted by Just Jack

Eliminating these mistakes from our midst is fundamentally humane IMO – that is where I draw my moral justification.

How are physical/mental disabilities mistakes?
How is it humane or moral to liquidate any handicapped person against their will?

Originally Posted by Just Jack

I find most forms of physical and mental retardations cruel and malevolent.

Why? Should all chimpanzees be exterminated for a having an impaired cognitive capacity relative to the average human? Is their existence "cruel and malevolent"?

Originally Posted by Radix

Both myself and my wife were told that we carry what's called a 'recessive gene'. When my daughter was born, I looked at her and I knew that certain types of people would call her names, and they sometimes do, but only in love so far.

But to me she is gorgeous, beautiful, talented and very loving.

I put her to bed tonight, and after a while she came out of her room and said, "Daddy, I just want to ask you something". I brought her back into her room, put her back in her bed and asked her, "what do you want to ask me love?"

She said, "Daddy will you get a sausage in the shop for me?" with pleading eyes.

I said, "do you mean a sausage roll?"

She said, "no, a sausage."

And I said, "of course I will, and I will fry it in the pan and give it to you in a big white bowl, and I will have one with you. Would that make you happy?"

And she said, "Yes."

You should have seen the look of delight in her eyes, and the smile on her face.

I kissed her goodnight, and told her I loved her very much, and she went to sleep, the happiest girl in the world.

And I left her room, with a heart full of love, glad that I had such a beautiful little human being to care for, who just delighted in being able to look forward to something as simple as a fried sausage.

When my wife came home, I told her the story, and we shared a hug which delighted in our little creation, one of God's special children!

My two siblings were born with a disease, received through a recessive gene, both parents had to possess this "faulty" gene, through no fault of anyone, they met got married & had two (well four actually, myself and another sister are fine, we just feel guilty all the time) children who had a very rapid disability.

My baby sister (who will be 40 this year), is a brave and talented young woman, she makes me proud all the time, but frightened for her all the time, some of the accidents she has had are frightening. She is absolutely beautiful in every way.

Your daughter will be the same, beautiful and talented, everyone has talents, making ones Dad happy is a talent in itself. When I was a teenager I made my Dad miserable, people called me the "normal" one, how normal is that?

P.S. I get on great with my Dad now, I'm heading for 50 & he is 80 years old, but your post made me think a lot. My 2 disabled siblings brought my parents very close, they are 52 years married and love each other so much. Watching them, when I was growing up, taught me about commitment, myself & hubby will be maried 23 years in September.

Originally Posted by pragmaticapproach

Surely in many instances the parents by deciding to abort a severely disabled child are sparing it of a lifetime of suffering?

The number of children with disabilities that face an unavoidable 'lifetime of suffering' is tiny. Many children with disabilities face into a happy, productive and largely healthy future, given the right supports. In most cases, the only 'suffering' involved will be caused by the kind of negative and narrow-minded attitudes that we've seen displayed on this thread.

Originally Posted by pragmaticapproach

but alot of people dont have the resources to care for such a child.

So it is therefore up to the State (and not any charity) to ensure that children with disabilities have equal access to education, healthcare, employment and other public services. It is really not that hard to make this happen.

Originally Posted by Just Jack

I find most forms of physical and mental retardations cruel and malevolent.

How many people with disabilities do you know personally?

Originally Posted by rant_and_rave

UK, Australia and in some of the more liberal states of the US.

One in every seven hundred pregnant women carry a DS child but the actual number of DS people in the general population is less than one in 10,000.

The number of DS pregnancies is getting higher as the average age of pregnant mothers increases. The medical term for a pregnant women over the age of 29 is geriatric primate, but don't tell your other half that.

Originally Posted by rant_and_rave

There are 700,000 babies born in the UK each year and around 200,000 terminations. That's 900,000 pregnancies. Given a natural rate of 1 in 700 chance of DS pregnancy we would expect 1285 DS babies born every year. The average number of abortions carried out for foetal disability in the UK is 1750 per year. The vast majority of these are DS simply because DS is one of the few foetal disabilities that is readily detectable.

SO you don't have an attributable source for your 98% claim then?

Originally Posted by RainyDay

The number of children with disabilities that face an unavoidable 'lifetime of suffering' is tiny. Many children with disabilities face into a happy, productive and largely healthy future, given the right supports. In most cases, the only 'suffering' involved will be caused by the kind of negative and narrow-minded attitudes that we've seen displayed on this thread.


So it is therefore up to the State (and not any charity) to ensure that children with disabilities have equal access to education, healthcare, employment and other public services. It is really not that hard to make this happen.


How many people with disabilities do you know personally?





SO you don't have an attributable source for your 98% claim then?

Do be fair, I did a bit of research into this before and the figure I came across in the US was 92/93%

Originally Posted by Rural

My two siblings were born with a disease, received through a recessive gene, both parents had to possess this "faulty" gene, through no fault of anyone, they met got married & had two (well four actually, myself and another sister are fine, we just feel guilty all the time) children who had a very rapid disability.

My baby sister (who will be 40 this year), is a brave and talented young woman, she makes me proud all the time, but frightened for her all the time, some of the accidents she has had are frightening. She is absolutely beautiful in every way.

Your daughter will be the same, beautiful and talented, everyone has talents, making ones Dad happy is a talent in itself. When I was a teenager I made my Dad miserable, people called me the "normal" one, how normal is that?

P.S. I get on great with my Dad now, I'm heading for 50 & he is 80 years old, but your post made me think a lot. My 2 disabled siblings brought my parents very close, they are 52 years married and love each other so much. Watching them, when I was growing up, taught me about commitment, myself & hubby will be maried 23 years in September.

Lovely posts from both you and Radix.