I am not getting my child Baptised

[H.R. Haldeman]

I have a 10 month old child. Both me and my fiance were baptised in the catholic church. Neither of us are practising catholics but come from families that include many strongly religious people. My fiance has a few nuns in the family, My own grandmother attends mass every day, our parents have stong convictions that we ought to get our baby baptised.

There is absolutely no way we are going to get our child baptised into the roman catholic church.
By making this decision, we are aware that it could affect our childs chances of getting into a school of our choice. We know he will miss out on the big cultural occasions of early childhood, communion, confirmation and first confession. By making this decision to not baptise our child, we are offending family members and causing them hardship and worry as they can not be at ease until the child's soul is protected

We are fully aware that the above are often the main reason why irish children are baptised into the church, over and above any religious conviction, people are catholics by birth, not belief. But I refuse to make one of the first acts as a parent for my child, to endanger him by putting him into an institution with such an appalling history of abuse and horrific violence against innocent children.

I am not going to tell a young child to pray to protect the pope and the bishops or to make oaths to be loyal to a church that has no moral authority, and therefore absolutely no reason for being.

A very inspiring post. Thanks for posting.

[Sailor]

Second most viewed thread in the last 24 hours.

Just goes to show how far we still have to go towards secularism. It's the very fact that a thread like this is of interest to so many people, concerning as it does a purely personal choice on a religious issue, that leaves me unconvinced that we are ready for church/state separation. I confidently believe that if secular, state run schools schools were introduced in the morning, Livelines would be humming with distraught young mothers worrying about who would prepare their kids for Comm & Con.

[Almanac]

Are you sure you have checked the Catechism on this? The Roman Catholic Catechism is what defines the Roman Catholic faith. And to my knowledge (though I may be mistaken) it declares the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ, and the hierarchy under his leadership to be the True Church. This is not separate from the faith but an integral part of it.

He's right actually. One believes in Christ and His revelation not the Pope. The Pope is just a fallible human being. Many have been saints and a few have been unworthy of their high office but, in either case, it is beside the point. It's the integrity of the faith that is guaranteed not any one individual.

If you accept the Christian faith and catholicism (importance of Sacraments, continuity of the priesthood), but don't believe the hierarchy under the Pope is the True Church, you might want to look into the Church of Ireland. It does NOT believe Anglicanism to be exclusively the True Church; rather, they believe that the True Church is not limited to an organization ("the Church and the faith are separate", just as you proclaimed). Yet there is a very significant catholic wing.

Problem is the Church of Ireland has absolutely no authority. The Catholic Church has an apostolic succession which goes directly back to the Apostles. Its authority rests on Christ. Even if every single member of the Church was a terrible example of Christianity the Church would still be the true Church. The belief that the Church must be a church of saints is an error that was first made by the Donatists of the fourth century. As long as we have free will, we'll always have traitors in our midst. Fortunately, we will also have the majority who are basically good. All other forms of Christianity besides Catholicism have their origin in individuals breaking away from the Church.

[Still Sceptical]

I think you are missing the point.

to endanger him by putting him into an institution with such an appalling history of abuse and horrific violence against innocent children.

Unless you are going to commit your child to an 'Institution' staffed and manned by perverted priests then I think your child would be safe enough in the local school that is nominally catholic.

It wasn't 'just a few bad apples'. The culture is important also. And this is particularly important in the context of the reponse of church as an institution, toward abuse. The cover up was systematic, and goes much further than a few bishops in a few areas. For those reasons, while a child may be unlikely to be abused in the horrific manner in which happened previously, there is a culture and an ethos evident which is not agreeable to many people.

I am not going to tell a young child to pray to protect the pope and the bishops or to make oaths to be loyal to a church that has no moral authority, and therefore absolutely no reason for being

The Church as an institution did not abuse children, certain members of its clergy did.

Which the church as an institution covered up, systematically, and their failure to end abuse lead to further abuse.

Of course if you don't theologically agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church then thats another story.

One of the fundamental points of the Christian Religion is that all men and women are sinners and 'Man' is in a fallen state.

God has given us free will to do good or evil.

No one is exempted from this - not even Catholic Priests.

The reasons you have stated are not very good ones IMO.

Why not allow your child to be baptised, grow up and then they can decide for themselves what they want their beliefs should be or not?

The Catholic Religion is a good one

- and people who follow its teachings with a true heart do not abuse little kids.

..why not let the kid decide later in life if it wants to be baptised??

[Catalpa]

It wasn't 'just a few bad apples'. The culture is important also. And this is particularly important in the context of the reponse of church as an institution, toward abuse. The cover up was systematic, and goes much further than a few bishops in a few areas. For those reasons, while a child may be unlikely to be abused in the horrific manner in which happened previously, there is a culture and an ethos evident which is not agreeable to many people.



Which the church as an institution covered up, systematically, and their failure to end abuse lead to further abuse.



..why not let the kid decide later in life if it wants to be baptised??

And what will be his or her's Moral Compass in the meantime?

Nature abhors a vacuum and that space would soon be filled by something else.

[zippo222]

Having your child baptised is not going to put your child in danger. You say your stance is causing the child's grandparents and other family members distress, and that you expect your child to miss out on things in his early childhood. If the child is already 10 months old and not yet baptised, well then I'd say you've already made whatever point you wanted to make by now. You and your partner will be the people who will be rearing the child and you'll have all the time in the world to let him know your beliefs and to choose his own. It would be an act of kindness not hypocrisy. I think whenever we can we should all try to do the kind thing.

[captainwillard]

My rule is 'always bat for your children'. Always give them the best opportunity in life. It is called compromise. There are things I did for them which I didn't really want to do, like grovelling to a teacher so that they were not bullied by him, even if I wanted to wring his neck.

It is called life. If you think you have made a really big decision for your child by this heroic decision, you have not even started.

[Toland]

The Catholic Church has an apostolic succession which goes directly back to the Apostles. Its authority rests on Christ.

Is that not even less convincing than the authority of the first Dáil?

It's certainly up there with it.

[thunderball]

Fairytales are fine and your kids grow out of them and are all the better for them. Can you honestly say the Catholic church and all its surrounding are good for them.
You should know at stage how it works, most are prime examples of it "Get them when they're young they'll never get away again".
The church is basically a (well run) business and purchases its way into kids hearts with bribery of Communion and confirmation. And here in Ireland we're just sheep following them.

[captainwillard]

I know plenty of parents who were disillusioned catholics who kept going to mass so as to give their children the best opportunity. That decision, ie the pragmatic decision, is the one worth making because it will help your children.

Why would any parent visit upon their children their own principles even if they knew it would disadvantage their children? It is completely beyond my comprehension.