Oaths of Silence Forced On Fr. Brendan Smyth's Victims

[sondagefaux]

It's unreported, I'm working from McGrath on Evidence.

McGrath says it refers specifically to counselling by clerics.

If that's the case, then evidence gathering by clerics wouldn't be covered, unless it was part of a counselling process.

The meetings with the children in this case were part of a canon law investigation, not part of a counselling process.

It's also interesting to note that parishioners can waive privilege.

That, combined with their right to view records kept on them by the church (Data Protection Act), effectively renders it impossible for the church to keep secrets, unless victims agree.

I would look to the moral formation of that dysfunctional society. For example, was there a dominant influence that asserted unquestionable authority over all questions of education, health, and family policy? That insisted on conformity, on pain of ostracism and worse? That fostered a culture of Sunday-best piousness and do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do morality? That could and did bring to heel politicians who broke ranks?

You might find an explanation for the cover-ups if you can find an institution that had that sort of influence.

Agreed. It's essential that no one institution is ever allowed the same degree of all-pervasive influence ever again.

We must have a root and branch reform of Irish society. Two of the most important areas are education and the constitution.

The publicly funded education system must be secular, not just in theory but in practice. This means that the so-called integrated curriculum for national schools, in which religion is tightly woven at all times, must be reformed along with changes to the ownership and management of schools.

The constitution also needs to be amended to make it clear that the practice of religion is protected (subject to the common good) but that its ideologies do not have any special status.

All public servants and officials must be trained to understand that their primary duty when carrying out their work is to the state and not to any private organisation, no matter how important the ideology of that organisation is to them.

[corelli]

Does anyone know when the civil action is due for a hearing? We are second guessing about the circumstances of the canon tribunal. The court case should clarify what happened.

It was specially listed before Christmas to deal with discovery matters. Apparently there were difficulties with the Gardai discovering their files, in what particular, I do not know. The Cardinal is opposing the case tooth and nail, it would appear.

[sondagefaux]

The Cardinal is opposing the case tooth and nail, it would appear.

Little wonder.

[Toland]

The Cardinal is opposing the case tooth and nail, it would appear.

Waddasurprise

[Disabled student]

It was specially listed before Christmas to deal with discovery matters. Apparently there were difficulties with the Gardai discovering their files, in what particular, I do not know. The Cardinal is opposing the case tooth and nail, it would appear.

Could you link to this .. source??

[sondagefaux]

Rural societies are innately socially conservative. There is a strong correlation between between industrialisation/urbanisation and the development of social liberalism. This is well documented in feminist studies. Given that Ireland was a predominantly rural society right up until the mid seventies I am not surprised that there was such a level of conservatism and deference to people in positions of authority. Remember, it wasn't just the priest that was beyond reproach, doctors, teachers and gardai were immune from criticism as well.

It was predominantly rural long after the mid-1970s!

I don't know when Ireland's population became majority urban but 42% of Ireland's population lived in rural areas in 2006, suggesting that there was probably a mainly rural population up to the 1990s.

Rural Ireland in Uncertain Times ? National Rural Network

This is not to say that all invididuals from rural areas or a rural background are more socially conservative than people from urban areas or backgrounds! It's just a generalised sociological phenomenon.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-168591687.html

[corelli]

Could you link to this .. source??

Here is the newspaper source.

Cardinal Brady is sued by victim of serial abuse priest - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie

[SirHenryGrattan]

I would look to the moral formation of that dysfunctional society. For example, was there a dominant influence that asserted unquestionable authority over all questions of education, health, and family policy? That insisted on conformity, on pain of ostracism and worse? That fostered a culture of Sunday-best piousness and do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do morality? That could and did bring to heel politicians who broke ranks?

You might find an explanation for the cover-ups if you can find an institution that had that sort of influence.

I had a chuckle when I read this. The dominant influence which you rightly refer to is normally the religious, political or social allegiance of the majority of the people. In Europe, it used to be Christianity until the 1920s. Then came fascism and communism. Finally we settled on social democracy. Fascist and Communist societies are dysfunctional. Victorian society was dysfunctional by today's standards. The upper classes literally got away with murder and no one could challenge them. In fact the behaviour of the Irish Hierarchy is reminiscent of the Ancien Regime. Bishops behave like spoilt gentry. Priests behave like arrogant squires.

[Half Nelson]

.. In fact the behaviour of the Irish Hierarchy is reminiscent of the Ancien Regime. Bishops behave like spoilt gentry. Priests behave like arrogant squires.

I've no doubt that was the case. It's not true of the clergy today, outside of the average personality types.

[SirHenryGrattan]

Agreed. It's essential that no one institution is ever allowed the same degree of all-pervasive influence ever again.

We must have a root and branch reform of Irish society. Two of the most important areas are education and the constitution.

The publicly funded education system must be secular, not just in theory but in practice. This means that the so-called integrated curriculum for national schools, in which religion is tightly woven at all times, must be reformed along with changes to the ownership and management of schools.

The constitution also needs to be amended to make it clear that the practice of religion is protected (subject to the common good) but that its ideologies do not have any special status.

All public servants and officials must be trained to understand that their primary duty when carrying out their work is to the state and not to any private organisation, no matter how important the ideology of that organisation is to them.

Must to this. Must do that. Where is the mandate for all this? TDs do not have parents banging on the door demanding the withdrawal of religious from schools. Some parents want the opportunity to send their kids to secular schools. The rest are happy with the status quo. There have been two incidents of RCC clerical abuse in the last 20 years which as far as I know occurred outside of schools. So unless you uncover a new crop of clerical abusers there is no case for further reform. Sorry but that's the way it is.