Seeing the Dark

[cry freedom]

Of course it is a question with intent, I find those without to be rather fruitless.
Anyhow, enough dancing, let me get straight to it

My belief
Fundamentalist religious beliefs do cause problems - ie. the belief that all should be ruled by my God's rules. We see this in the world today, how to tackle, I'm unsure.

Today, we also see (especially right wing American) fundamentalists attacking the likes of Dawkins etc who for the sake of this argument, we'll clasify as fundamentalist atheist. I believe we see these fundamenalist religious using the likes of Dawkins as recruitment tools.

We also have if you like, moderate religious. People who believe in God, but are happy to live in a secular society and don't feel the need to impose their will on others. They can of course argue against issues like the death penalty as is their democratic right. The don't feel the need to belittle or ridicule others who don't share their faith.

And of corse we have moderate atheists and agnostics. They don't believe or refuse to believe without evidence. But again, don't feel the need to be-little of ridicule thos who do believe.

I believe fundamentalist religious are problematic
I believe fundamentalist atheist help fundamentalist religious
More moderation on both sides would be better

You believe in the darkness, but also feel the need to ridicule those who believe in the light
Why not take a more moderate approach?
or if you can't
why not tell your grandchildren which are more beautiful/intelligent

Good post paulp.
And I agree with most of it. 99% of it, in fact !
However, with all this sweetness and light floating around, how are we going to have a good old ding dong,knock 'em dead, finger in the eye, no holes barred,skin and hair, argument/ discussion/ debate/ disagreement about
the finer things in life.
I have a family of cousins who are very good living, traditional Irish catholics.
They are painfully honest and masters of the uncontroversial.
Trying to rise them is like poking at a nest of dead beetles.
I like them but going to visit them is like entering a convent where all the nuns are on Prozac.
I know that they view me with a mixture of pity and tolerance but ,hell,I can't help it if I was born a provoker!

[MauriceColgan]

Happy birthday. Last time I saw 42 was on a bus.



Likely a similar reason why you posted the OP.
There is no question, just conversation.

Thank you.
Yes no question, is better than none.

[MauriceColgan]

why not tell your grandchildren which are more beautiful/intelligent

If you do not know the answer to that question yourself, there's nothing I can add. Till you grow.

We cannot impose our will on others, we can only persuade.

Richard Dawkins in no more a fundementalist than I am a Rabbi. Let's not be silly.

Yes the moderate approach is to fill our media with messages from Popes, Bishops, Priests,vicars etc day in day out whether we like it or not. Same in most schools.

So we Atheists just have too be a little more dedicated than we really need to be on some Forums, just to get a word in sideways.

I'm still trying to figure out why you guys are here though.

Expecting Revelation?

[paulp]

If you do not know the answer to that question yourself, there's nothing I can add. Till you grow.

because it would cause needless offence?

We cannot impose our will on others, we can only persuade.

as per my description of moderate religious?

Richard Dawkins in no more a fundementalist than I am a Rabbi. Let's not be silly.

How would you describe him?

Yes the moderate approach is to fill our media with messages from Popes, Bishops, Priests,vicars etc day in day out whether we like it or not. Same in most schools.

this is certainly diminishing in Ireland today - we still have church run schools but this is also diminishing and probably/possibly will decline a lot further in medium term. I'm not defending this, but hardly justifies intolerance from atheists?

So we Atheists just have too be a little more dedicated than we really need to be on some Forums, just to get a word in sideways.

you? really? on this site? you post many interesting threads, but the petty disrespect turns me off too often

I'm still trying to figure out why you guys are here though.

Expecting Revelation?

I just enjoy your rantings too much

[paulp]

Good post paulp.
And I agree with most of it. 99% of it, in fact !
However, with all this sweetness and light floating around, how are we going to have a good old ding dong,knock 'em dead, finger in the eye, no holes barred,skin and hair, argument/ discussion/ debate/ disagreement about
the finer things in life.
I have a family of cousins who are very good living, traditional Irish catholics.
They are painfully honest and masters of the uncontroversial.
Trying to rise them is like poking at a nest of dead beetles.
I like them but going to visit them is like entering a convent where all the nuns are on Prozac.
I know that they view me with a mixture of pity and tolerance but ,hell,I can't help it if I was born a provoker!

I wonder do they find you boring?

Anyway, not to worry, I don't think you are short of people to provoke, Maurice is always here for you.

[JCR]

Maybe you are mischievous?

I admire all the great thinkers of the past, and modern times. They have/are enriching my life.

As a ten year old I was given the, "Life of St Paul", book for being the best behaved boy in my class at St Bonifaces RC school.

I'm still very well behaved today.

Now about this dark before birth or after death question. Where do you stand?

Mischief begets all sorts of continuing mischief as one know very well..Entertaining and all as it may be..

I simply don't have the knowledge to have a definitive belief on the subject so I keep an open mind and seek the knowledge. Holding a definitive belief on a subject that I simply do not possess the actual means to know does not seem rational to me. I think simply 'I don't know' is the most honest thing anyone can say on this matter. Hence Pascal's wager I guess.

'Seeing the dark' is a poetic statement but it does represent a desicion in my opinion to take a position regardless of knowledge which does seem very akin to a faith position philosophically IMO. There is very little it is possible to 'know' on this subject, 'knowledge' and scepticism on knowledge have to be bedfellows from a philosophical posiiton IMO but I would extend my scepticism from the mythic belief systems of the past to current material beliefs also. I know I might be wrong. I have faith my knowledge and the pursuit of it might lead somewhere. That in truth is all any of us can say...

[MauriceColgan]

My older sister Dolores treated my wife and I to a night out in Glendalough for my 68th birthday on the 10 February.

When we returned home amongst the day late birthday cards was a letter from an ex-Hollywood film star Dolores Hart, and a firm of Solicitors in Kildare demanding I take responsiblity for a car accident caused by black ice! Mixed feelings, huh? That's life.

To my way of thinking there is the real tooth and claw life of evolution where we can hold in our hands the ancient fossils, and then the modern artifacts invented by scientists etc.
Also all the things like books TV and computers that make life interesting, very enjoyable and often very depressing indeed. Such as Wars and drug dealing.

The Opiate dreamworld of the religious, and mystics is fine for some yet as we know totally unsatisfactory for a great many independent thinkers like myself. It's nice to quote philosophers and "prophets" etc but the bottom line is we as individuals must think it all out for ourselves. Taking onboard all we know from our education and research.

So I am not really disrespectful to others that believe in a God because there was a time I believed it all too. I cannot laugh to hard at my own past reality now, can I?

The lady in the photo above starred with a lot of the major male actors of the big screen 1957 to 1963, including two films starring Elvis Presley 1957/58, then gave up Hollywood to become a nun in 1963. (The photo arrived with her letter yesterday)
She is still a member of the Benedictine order and living in an Abbey in Conecticut.

We have been corresponding for more than ten years now. She knows about my disbelief, but finds it hard to believe.

Just another rant, paulp?

JCR, That's a nice thoughtful reply yet after considering it for some time I am still not convinced it is any more enlightening than all the stuff like it that I have read before, decade after decade. In fact I was just revisiting the theme of Shaw's play "Back to Methusalah" last night.

Thanks for seeing the poetry of the Dark.

[MauriceColgan]

Open your eyes, dont fight it. "Seek and you will find"... that includes the dark.

I found it. Already.

The limitification of human thought has us all dancing to Beethoven's crazy 4th movement of the magnificent Seventh symphony.

[Foghorn]

Maurice,

Found these. They're great for helping "see in the dark".

[MauriceColgan]

Foghorn, They help see in the dark.

Not the dark itself.