Atheists are having it too easy.

[Didimus]

I've been using neither. It's a metaphor. Remember?.

Are we arguing about words? Thought you did not do that?

[Garland Names the Planets]

Are we arguing about words? Thought you did not do that?

I didn't. You introduced hairbrushes in addition to Hammers & Nails I'm afraid. You made the mistake of changing the metaphor into fantasy while forgetting that if you introduce into the metaphor any new thing it has to have a real world counterpart with equivalent properties in order for you to have any real point

[Didimus]

GG -You didn't or you don't?
`I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'
`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. `They've a temper, some of them -- particularly verbs: they're the proudest -- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs -- however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'
`Would you tell me please,' said Alice, `what that means?'
`Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. `I meant by "impenetrability" that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'

[Garland Names the Planets]

GG -You didn't or you don't?
`I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'
`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. `They've a temper, some of them -- particularly verbs: they're the proudest -- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs -- however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'
`Would you tell me please,' said Alice, `what that means?'
`Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. `I meant by "impenetrability" that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'

gg got banned. I'm GNTP now I'm afraid. As Carroll himself wrote those two books as a satire on gibberish am I to take your quotes as an admission?

Wonderland/Chessboard/Mental Asylum. You know I'm happy for your mind to reside in all or none. As long as that's where you remain

[Garland Names the Planets]

GG -You didn't or you don't?
`I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'
`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. `They've a temper, some of them -- particularly verbs: they're the proudest -- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs -- however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'
`Would you tell me please,' said Alice, `what that means?'
`Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. `I meant by "impenetrability" that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'

gg got banned. I'm GNTP now I'm afraid. As Carroll himself wrote those two books as a satire on gibberish am I to take your quotes as an admission?

Wonderland/Chessboard/Mental Asylum. You know I'm happy for your mind to reside in all or none. As long as that's where it remains

[Didimus]

Yes I admit it. You are indeed talking gibberish.
GG or GNTP? To me you'll always be HD.

[Garland Names the Planets]

Yes I admit it. You are indeed talking gibberish.
GG or GNTP? To me you'll always be HD.

I'm a patient man Didi. I was of course was going to give you time to come up with a better response than that. Try again

[Didimus]

How about responding to my original post by actual putting forth an argument?
Where exactly are you a patient?

[fionnmccool]

Theists believe in loving God....................but that's nothing in our faith says that the world is kind. In fact quite the opposite, the message of Christianity is one of hope, but it is also one of suffering.

You are making an argument against an argument that does not exist.

John 3:16 is sometimes referred to as "The Gospel in a Nutshell".

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The Gospel does not judge the quality of a life based on suffering or lack thereof. In fact it says that the best life where someone follows the teaching requires - "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" Matthew 16:24.

And the promise of Paradise is definitely not one where you are granted "your hearts desires".

Do you think it is right to be selective about the bible and choose only the passages you like or do you use them all for inspiration ? I was making an argument which stands on it's own. It is within the usual realm of speculation without proof which theology and religion inhabits. The usual angels on the head of a pin type discussions by those who have studied stock questions and answers is not for me.
Some passages in the bible are very fine but thats a very selective excerpt. I can select some of my own below :


Sex Slavery:

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Ritual Human Sacrifice

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith - twenty towns - and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter - his only child - ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." Judges 11:29-40

Rape and Baby Killing

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

More cruelty towards babies:

"The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords." (Hosea 13:16 NLT)


"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB

Rape of Female Captives

"Suppose you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God hands them over to you and you take captives. And suppose you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you are attracted to her and want to marry her. If this happens, you may take her to your home, where she must shave her head, cut her fingernails, and change all her clothes. Then she must remain in your home for a full month, mourning for her father and mother. After that you may marry her. But if you marry her and then decide you do not like her, you must let her go free. You may not sell her or treat her as a slave, for you have humiliated her." (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NLT)

Murder of Homosexuals:

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."
(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

More Rape

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Christian and religious morality is all about obedience to ''God'' , a dictator of such intelligence and power that humanity compares as nothing but ants, no matter what those instructions to obey consist of.
How can you say about me that: ''You are making an argument against an argument that does not exist.'' It is not a non argument. Read carefully the passages I choose to quote and tell me how does God not come across as an uncaring a$$hole or at the very least insincere, inconsistent and deranged ?
The existence of God is one thing to ponder but assuming this existence does not give one free reign to assume the goodness of such an entity unless one completely abandons logic and resorts to blind faith and obedience to religious dogma which in itself is all about obedience and selective reasoning plus the ignoring of those passages in Gods book which embarrass with no smart questions entertained. I still await some defence of those passages I quoted above from Almanac etc. I would be extremely interested in some enlightenment on this matter. I would assume that we would be lucky if such a being did not view and treat us the way we view and treat cattle, battery farmed hens and pigs. The gulf in intelligence between mankind and such a being would certainly be far wider.

..........Thou shalt not kill.

What about self defence ? Its' not impossible that a police sniper may very well have a maniac in a school with a bomb strapped to his back in his sights where shooting to kill may be the only available option because maiming will leave the maniac sufficient strength to press the arming trigger. You attempted a objective moral law and while I cant disagree with the spirit of this law I cant see how your quoting of the bible earlier helps your argument. The bible as I have shown quoted above is riddled with questionable passages which most people would view as immoral. Therefore the morality written about in this book is not an objective one but one where the definition of morality equates with nothing but obedience to God. It's only objective is obedience. Religion does not own or trademark the definition of morality by any means.

[Garland Names the Planets]

I'll answer your questions in reverse order. My patience reside nowhere because you've exhausted them. I didn't read your original post unless the first post I of yours I read on this thread was the first on this thread. I didn't bother to check back any further. Once you've read one you've read them all.