Water Charges introduction closer

[Kevin Doyle]

I have to correct you there Kevin. When I built my house in Donegal 5 years ago I had to pay a 'Connection Fee' to connect to the local water supply, I think it was around £600 at the time?

My point still stands, you have paid a connection fee, a cost that I am sure is recouped in urban areas in other ways, most likely the cost of the house.

You have a meter installed but you are not receiving bills for water usage. That is the point I was making when is was suggested earlier that rural people pay for their water.
If you are unhappy with the arrangement, lobby your local representative. If you agree with being charged in this way, well then we will have to agree to differ on that point.

Also, lets not forget, we pay taxes for this. And before the FF/PD bandwagon start up with the "there isnt enough in the central tax reserve to cover the cost" line, let me remind them that Tax revenue is at record levels.

In any case and IMHO, water charges (or bin charges) should not become an excepted part of the cost of living.
This is RW thinking at its most delicate, gently messaging the notion of everything having a price into the collective conscience.

The other notion is that charges encourages recycling and better use of water. More guff, these charges where solely introduced as revenue generators by this government, any other reading of their motives is naive in the extreme.

The biggest generators of waste and the biggest abusers of resources are in the industrial sector not the domestic.
Forcing ordinary households to "chip in" for the bill (AGAIN) is a disgrace and a lazy approach by goverment by choosing the soft target.

[Conor]

The other notion is that charges encourages recycling and better use of water. More guff, these charges where solely introduced as revenue generators by this government, any other reading of their motives is naive in the extreme.

Their motives are irrelevant to the merits of any such scheme. Do you think charges encourage people to make better use of water?

[Kevin Doyle]

Their motives are irrelevant to the merits of any such scheme.

Their motives are very bloody relevant. They are the Government. Their actions and motives should be held up to the highest scrutiny. This 'cute hoorism' of imposing stealth taxes under the guise of quasi eco-friendliness without tackling the biggest offenders in that regard (I'll say it again-The Industrial Sector) is revealing in itself. They are not tackling the problem at all, meerly exploiting current concerns regarding the environment.

Do you think charges encourage people to make better use of water?

That question would be relevent if those who will be most financially impacted by such charges where the biggest abusers of the resource.
Families on low incomes will be forced not encouraged to make even harder choices as to where to direct what meagre finances they have.
Looking at this broadly through Green tinted glasses is not enough.
If you are serious about the environment, lobby the government to go after the big polluters and the big abusers of water and other resources. That of course being Industry.

[Universal_001]

Indeed, I actually can't beleive someone has used the phrase why shoudl people get water for free.

We pay taxes, thats why, so were not getting it for free, water charges just make us pay twice.

You could understand if water was some kind of scarce resource here, which it's clearly not.
and before anyone starts whinging about our crappy water infarstructure thats leaking to bits, a one off capital injection pays for this.

Water is abundant in the environment but clean, potable water is a scarce resource.

The idea of water charges is not to make people pay for water; its to make people realise that it is a scarce resource and use it more economically. The same logic applies to bin charges. i.e. if you use more, you pay more.

Also, there are extra charges associated with water delivery in rural areas. People either pay connection and maintenance charges to connect to Group Water Schemes, or pay their own maintenace costs to maintain private wells.

One look at bin charges will tel you you don't get to pay less the less you use (not in my council area anyway where flat charges exist with the pay by use ON TOP OF THAT)

We already pay for water through taxation.
This will hit people on low incomes disproportionatly.

Is there an impression that Irish people are wasting hoardes of water? Is there any evidence for this? that were wasting so much we won't be able to control ourselves without charges??

At the very minimum (even if there was a justification for it) it should come with a corrisponding decreace in other charges or taxes.

[qtman]

The other notion is that charges encourages recycling and better use of water. More guff, these charges where solely introduced as revenue generators by this government, any other reading of their motives is naive in the extreme.

The biggest generators of waste and the biggest abusers of resources are in the industrial sector not the domestic.
Forcing ordinary households to "chip in" for the bill (AGAIN) is a disgrace and a lazy approach by goverment by choosing the soft target.

The idea behind the Polluter Pays principle is not to cover the cost of providing a resource; its to encourage more sustainable behaviour.

There is little point in the Industrial Sector covering the entire cost of waste disposal and the provision of water if you have ordinary households stacking up 3 or 4 bins of wet refuse every week and sprinkling their lawns and washing their cars every second day of the week.

This is not a revenue issue. Its a behaviourial issue, which appears to be something the Miltant Left just don't get.

[Kevin Doyle]

The idea behind the Polluter Pays principle is not to cover the cost of providing a resource; its to encourage more sustainable behaviour.

I Think Universal_001 answered that one very adequately.

There is little point in the Industrial Sector covering the entire cost of waste disposal and the provision of water if you have ordinary households stacking up 3 or 4 bins of wet refuse every week and sprinkling their lawns and washing their cars every second day of the week.

I don't know where you live, but I have never witnessed an ordinary household in my area "stacking up 3 or 4 bins of wet refuse every week" or " sprinkling their lawns" (Give the footpath a good scrub on occasion but that's civic pride for you) or "washing their cars every second day of the week". Simply doesn't happen.
As for the industrial sector footing the bill, you cited a 'polluter pays principle' so let them.
In any case, water is paid for by taxes, imposing a charge is double taxation. Do you agree with that?

This is not a revenue issue. Its a behavioural issue, which appears to be something the Miltant Left just don't get.

This is very much a revenue issue. Government has a Neo-liberal economic agenda and this is part of it. Revenue generation with a lead in to privatisation and the creation of profit. The behavioural issue is extremely convenient for FF/PD's as it gives them the appearance of the high moral ground in making an extremely unpopular double tax more palatable.

Furthermore and with tongue firmly in cheek, is it not a RW axiom to limit government interference in daily life and here they are concerned about and trying to foster 'behavioural change'

If the RW are serious about pollution, the abuse of resources (their scarcity etc) and the environmental impact of such then they should tackle the real cause which of course is big business.
The fact they are not belies any notion that government has benevolent motives for imposing a double taxation in the form of water charges.
The militant left ‘gets’ this very well.

[Ronanr]

Is domestic water really that scarce in this country that we need punitive charges to stop people using it?

[Marx]

Parts of Mid-Kerry where you might think had enough rainfall suffered water shortages last summer. I think that a high amount of water is wasted in this country. I think every household should have a fair quota of water and if you go beyong that then you should be charged.

[KeithM]

Why should people get to use there water for free? I mean people in the country side already pay for theres so why not the city too? Not very equitable...

This is one of the few things on which I agree with the Green Party, as a public utility water should be metered and charged. We should insist that all new houses have water meters and that they are added to existing housing stock within a decade.

[FakeViking]

I've been involved with some of these water charging schemes abroad, and it's a very easy step to move from 'paying for water' to 'paying for the administration of water charges'. Review the Irish history of waste charges, initially introduced to reduce the reliance of Irish householders on county council waste services, but rapidy morphed into phenonmally profitable privatised "recylcing centres", where the waste products just get exported to India and China.