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  1. #1
    McTell McTell is offline
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    Air travel in the EU after brexit

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...aper-1.3303986


    There's a lot of guff being generated behind the scenes that seems designed to slow the deal. Of great importance to us, given being on an island, aircraft leasing biz, Ryanair,

    First, EU to EU flights must be made by a carrier that is 50% owned by EU persons - who knew this?

    "Ownership restrictions would also apply, forcing groups such as Ryanair andInternational Airlines Group to buy out British shareholders to ensure they were 50 per cent owned and controlled by EU nationals, in order to continue operating routes within the EU." ...

    If strictly applied in a no-deal Brexit scenario, such an approach would lead to the grounding of many UK flights — something British ministers have dismissed as scaremongering. The paper notes there are no World Trade Organisation fallback options for aviation and makes clear that “old bilateral agreements between member states and the UK are not revived”.



    No, but there's IATA - IATA - Home

    IATA - Air Traffic Management

    Everyone else thinks that the "single european sky" is still at the blueprint stage -

    http://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Doc...ropean-sky.pdf


    Plus US, arab, chinese and russian planes come and go without anyone denying them the right to land. The tenor of this "leaked" doc is that the EU are (on our behalf) looking for difficulties that don't really exist, unless we want them to. Do we want difficulties? Where's the margin in that?

    When we're flying from Milano to Dublino, and the plane will most likely clip UK airspace, do we want to pay extra for the privilege?
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  2. #2
    Tribal Tribal is offline

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    The ownership rights thing is an unavoidable issue, plus while the likes of Ryanair do fly to non-EU/EEA/CU destinations like Israel and Morocco, they don't have planes or staff positioned there. The UK would be in the same situation after brexit, flights will go to the UK but not originate from there.
    Last edited by Tribal; 25th November 2017 at 03:08 PM. Reason: words
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  3. #3
    gleeful gleeful is offline

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    Ryanair can easily solve the ownership issue by buying back some shares - something they already announced.
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  4. #4
    Mushroom Mushroom is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by gleeful View Post
    Ryanair can easily solve the ownership issue by buying back some shares - something they already announced.
    Not necessarily. Informed UK shareholders might decide to hang onto their shares on the chance that they'd be offered more at a later date if MOL needed to get them off the share register!
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  5. #5
    McTell McTell is offline
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    I don't think passengers are loyal to an airline any more, so what does it matter if BA / monarch / virgin can't fly London-Madrid? They will set up a subsidiary there - probably already have one.

    If a non-EU airline has, say, 5 slots to land at Frankfurt, Frankfurt can't simply confiscate or cancel them, because then nobody (say flying from the US or the Gulf) could ever be sure that their slots wouldn't be confiscated as they board their plane.

    The EU receives flights from lots of 3rd world airlines as well, and they're to be preferred to Virgin? Seriously?

    https://www.travelocity.com/vc/fligh...lights-europe/


    Plus all the leasing out of private jets registered in the Isle of Man for VAT reasons, where the IOM is not in the EU - but is in UK airspace - will that go on as before? They are in the UK but not in the EU already.

    Will your flight from copenhagen to dallas have to swing wide to avoid UK airspace?

    Too many Qs to be sorted by march 2019. Open skies the best policy for us anyway.
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  6. #6
    gleeful gleeful is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mushroom View Post
    Not necessarily. Informed UK shareholders might decide to hang onto their shares on the chance that they'd be offered more at a later date if MOL needed to get them off the share register!
    MOL could simply dilute them if needed by printing new shares.
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  7. #7
    Mushroom Mushroom is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by gleeful View Post
    MOL could simply dilute them if needed by printing new shares.
    But he couldn't discriminate against UK stockholders so they'd be entitled to buy them too! So that wouldn't work either. In fact it could make the problem worse!
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  8. #8
    gleeful gleeful is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mushroom View Post
    But he couldn't discriminate against UK stockholders so they'd be entitled to buy them too! So that wouldn't work either. In fact it could make the problem worse!
    He can because EU law requires that he does. How do you think airlines currently prevent nonEU investers buying too many shares?
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  9. #9
    Tribal Tribal is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by McTell View Post
    The EU receives flights from lots of 3rd world airlines as well, and they're to be preferred to Virgin? Seriously?
    From the little I understand on these matters the EU also refuses airlines whose planes aren't serviced to an internationally recognised standard. Here's a current list of airlines banned from EU airspace.
    https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...oc/list_en.pdf

    Post Brexit UK based airlines would have to avoid this list if they hope to fly anywhere except over the arctic circle.

    EU airlines have been grounded too, I think there was a Greek airline grounded before on safety compliance issues.
    Last edited by Tribal; 25th November 2017 at 04:06 PM.
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  10. #10
    McTell McTell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tribal View Post
    From the little I understand on these matters the EU also refuses airlines whose planes are serviced to an internationally recognised standard. Here's a current list of airlines banned from EU airspace.
    https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...oc/list_en.pdf///.

    Yes, so as things stand they would be certified like any US or Chinese airline, and have to be up to that standard already. I don't see brexit stopping them from being certified.

    There's nothing in article 50 that says that all airlines flying on brexit day are OK, but all those flying on brexit day + 1 are not OK.

    How can you be safe enough under IATA standards, but not safe in the EU because your country is leaving the EU? I always assumed that the rules are for the benefit of passenger safety, end of.
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