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  1. #21
    Windowshopper Windowshopper is offline
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    We don't have a full veto we have a veto of phrase 1 which thouches on vital Irish interests in a way it doesn't touch other countries.
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  2. #22
    Lumpy Talbot Lumpy Talbot is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkhorse View Post
    Ireland is a small country
    Should it have the right to veto a British/EU trade deal or scupper the UK economy?
    I wouldn't worry about it. At one point Ireland effectively had a veto on the further advancement of the European federal project. Voted against it.

    Then the bought monkeys in the Irish government fearful of annoying Brussels and missing out on some cushy appointments called another vote and orchestrated a scare campaign to get the 'right' result the next time the same question was put before the electorate.

    Ireland doesn't have a veto. If Brussels and London reach an outline agreement tomorrow Varadkar or whoever is in charge of the next shambles will be told to back off by Brussels. Again.
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  3. #23
    Man or Mouse Man or Mouse is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpast View Post
    IIRC we have never used our Veto

    If Merkel; Macron & Tusk give it their Legal Imprimatur

    - then the Deal will be done

    Ireland will be offered a Financial package as way of Compensation

    Leo or Martin would bottle it

    - rather than take on Brussels.
    Have we a man who wouldn't then? I'd love to hear the name.
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  4. #24
    Ireniall Ireniall is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpast View Post
    IIRC we have never used our Veto

    If Merkel; Macron & Tusk give it their Legal Imprimatur

    - then the Deal will be done

    Ireland will be offered a Financial package as way of Compensation

    Leo or Martin would bottle it

    - rather than take on Brussels.
    One of the most serious results of the Brexit vote is the probable removal of the northern Nationalists comfortable position within the northern state. I'm quite sure that at least some of the DUP membership understood this and were motivated by it. I'm sure that these types relished the idea of the hard border in order to remove the Nationalists position of having a reasonable compromise. Of course this was never going to arise if NI had special status so these guys knew that pressure to put the economic border in the sea would have to be resisted and they knew that it would almost certainly be resisted successfully given the numbers and the hubris of the Brexit vote. I guess they were surprised at the leave vote but could see the positives if you like.

    There is absolutely nothing that can be done about this. The only people who can do anything about this are the Nationalists of NI who may soon be in the majority. Even the UK cannot really do anything about this without ferocious upheaval and division and certainly not the RoI or the EU. So there is no point whatever in our falling out with our friends in Europe in a vain attempt to make them accept some fetishized relationship cobbled together to precisely fit the UK's ridiculous set of circumstances and conditions most especially when the whole mess is entirely their doing as well. Yes-fight like hell to get a good deal. Threaten and bluster if necessary. Push and shove for a better position and if the EU are willing to support our veto -by all means use it. But when it comes right down to it do not take on the EU over a lost cause. We will need to keep our credit worthy status for future fights over our Corporate Tax rate and other important and winnable issues. We will then need to re-assure northern Nationalists that they are welcome in our house should they decide to enter it but would they bring as many Unionist friends as possible for the sake of peace and generosity.
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  5. #25
    hollandia hollandia is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ireniall View Post
    One of the most serious results of the Brexit vote is the probable removal of the northern Nationalists comfortable position within the northern state. I'm quite sure that at least some of the DUP membership understood this and were motivated by it. I'm sure that these types relished the idea of the hard border in order to remove the Nationalists position of having a reasonable compromise. Of course this was never going to arise if NI had special status so these guys knew that pressure to put the economic border in the sea would have to be resisted and they knew that it would almost certainly be resisted successfully given the numbers and the hubris of the Brexit vote. I guess they were surprised at the leave vote but could see the positives if you like.

    There is absolutely nothing that can be done about this. The only people who can do anything about this are the Nationalists of NI who may soon be in the majority. Even the UK cannot really do anything about this without ferocious upheaval and division and certainly not the RoI or the EU. So there is no point whatever in our falling out with our friends in Europe in a vain attempt to make them accept some fetishized relationship cobbled together to precisely fit the UK's ridiculous set of circumstances and conditions most especially when the whole mess is entirely their doing as well. Yes-fight like hell to get a good deal. Threaten and bluster if necessary. Push and shove for a better position and if the EU are willing to support our veto -by all means use it. But when it comes right down to it do not take on the EU over a lost cause. We will need to keep our credit worthy status for future fights over our Corporate Tax rate and other important and winnable issues. We will then need to re-assure northern Nationalists that they are welcome in our house should they decide to enter it but would they bring as many Unionist friends as possible for the sake of peace and generosity.
    The only issue I have with what you've posted is the last two sentences. Northern nationalists have had almost a century of "reassurances". Reassurances will not cut it. The govt, for once, actually recognises this, and is, at the moment acting accordingly. There will be a general election in the UK before brexit occurs and the dup will be punished for their folly. Both by an incoming UK govt and by northern nationalism and moderate unionists.
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  6. #26
    Ireniall Ireniall is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by hollandia View Post
    The only issue I have with what you've posted is the last two sentences. Northern nationalists have had almost a century of "reassurances". Reassurances will not cut it. The govt, for once, actually recognises this, and is, at the moment acting accordingly. There will be a general election in the UK before brexit occurs and the dup will be punished for their folly. Both by an incoming UK govt and by northern nationalism and moderate unionists.
    What I was really getting at there is that the emphasis on the 50+1 not being enough should be toned down perhaps while giving Nationalists room to try to win over as many Unionists as possible and encouraging them to do so. Let me be frank. I am a complete pessimist by nature. I think that virtually all of those moderate Unionists who voted remain will disappear when the real stuff starts which is why I'd like to see a less contentious referendum about the sea border and special status rather than a full on united Ireland poll. If a Corbyn government gets in this might be possible but of course the odds are that they would keep the whole UK inside the EEA and/or Customs Union or even scupper Brexit in the end.
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  7. #27
    galteeman galteeman is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ireniall View Post
    What I was really getting at there is that the emphasis on the 50+1 not being enough should be toned down perhaps while giving Nationalists room to try to win over as many Unionists as possible and encouraging them to do so. Let me be frank. I am a complete pessimist by nature. I think that virtually all of those moderate Unionists who voted remain will disappear when the real stuff starts which is why I'd like to see a less contentious referendum about the sea border and special status rather than a full on united Ireland poll. If a Corbyn government gets in this might be possible but of course the odds are that they would keep the whole UK inside the EEA and/or Customs Union or even scupper Brexit in the end.
    That could well be the outcome of the negotiations. The extreme Brexit Tories and DUP couldn't complain if NI is given a referendum on the economic border. The only problem is that the DUP could whip up such a unionist fervour that it might well be defeated anyway. Will there be enough moderate unionists to accept the economic border in the Irish sea?
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  8. #28
    hollandia hollandia is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by galteeman View Post
    That could well be the outcome of the negotiations. The extreme Brexit Tories and DUP couldn't complain if NI is given a referendum on the economic border. The only problem is that the DUP could whip up such a unionist fervour that it might well be defeated anyway. Will there be enough moderate unionists to accept the economic border in the Irish sea?
    Yes. Mike Nesbit on rte less than half an hour ago believes it will take the UK ten years to right itself post-brexit. He also said he paid for his two sons' Irish passports, so disgusted were they with brexit. And he was the leader of the Ulster unionists less than a year ago.
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  9. #29
    rainmaker rainmaker is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickeymac View Post
    The British and the North of Ireland taxpayers need to be aware, (whether they like it or not) support such bombings through their tax contributions to the British treasury.
    So do American taxes like the ones you pay...
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  10. #30
    The Field Marshal The Field Marshal is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ireniall View Post
    That's not Ireland first. That's Ireland on her own. Have we not had a thousand years of history to teach us what folly that is?
    Ireland must protect its national interests.
    Part of that means ensuring that physical border checks are not re-imposed on the island.

    Nobody living on the island of Ireland wants them.

    Therefore VETO powers must be ruthlessly wielded to tell any continental EU dog or any British govt that it's not on.
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